Tavor shotgun

[nstassel]

reread the statue. It talks about the capacity of the weapon as a whole w/o consideration for the mechanism. No where does it discuss manual steps or similar.

This is a good point. Even if it had six magazines that held one shell each a prosecutor could argue that it has "a magazine capacity" that is greater than five.

 

[drgrant]

I would have never guessed you knew who MF DOOM was, I tip my hat sir.

If it wasn't for muh bro @Cuthbert Allgood i would not be so astute, but it's a prescient message these days.....

 

[Len-2A Training]

even if one beats the LCFD charge, there's still the possibility for LC firearm/assault weapon (shotgun), owing to its advertised fixed, 15+1 capacity, no?

I'm looking at that as the same issue: is this one magazine or three?

I am not familiar with the Tavor shotgun, but offer the following to further confuse the issue.

- Damn near every MA Dealer has sold the Keltec KSG which IIRC holds 7 rds/tube with 2 tubes. To date, I am unaware that anyone has ever challenged this as an LCFD violation.
- I asked Glidden about shotgun tubes >5 rds in front of 200 chiefs and LOs at his seminar back some years ago and his answer was that EOPS had issued some opinion that a >5 rd tube on a tube-fed shotgun could never be an LCFD. I KNOW that this is contrary to the black and white words in the MA (and former Fed) AWB. When I teach, I advise my students that this opinion could be rescinded at any moment. They can decide for themselves their level of risk aversion to live by.

IANAL, but I think that the legal issue is the same between the Tavor shotgun and the Keltec KSG.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I am not familiar with the Tavor shotgun, but offer the following to further confuse the issue.

- Damn near every MA Dealer has sold the Keltec KSG which IIRC holds 7 rds/tube with 2 tubes. To date, I am unaware that anyone has ever challenged this as an LCFD violation.
- I asked Glidden about shotgun tubes >5 rds in front of 200 chiefs and LOs at his seminar back some years ago and his answer was that EOPS had issued some opinion that a >5 rd tube on a tube-fed shotgun could never be an LCFD. I KNOW that this is contrary to the black and white words in the MA (and former Fed) AWB. When I teach, I advise my students that this opinion could be rescinded at any moment. They can decide for themselves their level of risk aversion to live by.

IANAL, but I think that the legal issue is the same between the Tavor shotgun and the Keltec KSG.

Whereas the KSG is a pump, the TS12 is semiauto. Of course, for me this is purely an academic curiosity.

 

[drgrant]

This is a good point. Even if it had six magazines that held one shell each a prosecutor could argue that it has "a magazine capacity" that is greater than five.

Of course in Mass this will never happen... the deal will get struck to drop the charge in exchange to get the guy to suck for something else etc, or even CWOF out, so it's difficult to develop anything that looks remotely like case law. Or a "legal solution" a savvy attorney can sell, etc. It's exceptionally rare or at least it appears to me that it is that anybody actually truly goes to battle of these issues in court venue/method that matters. Rarely is the accused some guy with deep pockets with a savvy attorney doing the laurence fishburne fight taunt.... I can only imagine some of the backroom negotiations though. "You can either offer to cwof my client or I'm going to take a week making a fool out of you in front of a jury". Etc. The stories I've heard first, second and third hand would make people's heads spin.... the questions never get answered because people either get to cwof out or on a bad day they end up sucking a plea on the one thing they can't maneuver out of. Like as a fun hypothetical some guy could have like closets full of possibly illegal s*** (which is debatable) but they're going to destroy him on that ONE gun that he left on the bed unsecured because there's literally no way out of an unsafe storage charge with that one.... it's hard to use technical issues to refute "when officer douche-canoe entered the defendant's residence he spotted an unsecured revolver on the nightstand " etc.[

I am not familiar with the Tavor shotgun, but offer the following to further confuse the issue.

- Damn near every MA Dealer has sold the Keltec KSG which IIRC holds 7 rds/tube with 2 tubes. To date, I am unaware that anyone has ever challenged this as an LCFD violation.
- I asked Glidden about shotgun tubes >5 rds in front of 200 chiefs and LOs at his seminar back some years ago and his answer was that EOPS had issued some opinion that a >5 rd tube on a tube-fed shotgun could never be an LCFD. I KNOW that this is contrary to the black and white words in the MA (and former Fed) AWB. When I teach, I advise my students that this opinion could be rescinded at any moment. They can decide for themselves their level of risk aversion to live by.

IANAL, but I think that the legal issue is the same between the Tavor shotgun and the Keltec KSG.

Lol the KSG is a pump and not an AW, and the KSG, 870, 590, etc are covered by a bunch of other weird debateable gnomish mysticism that prevents lcafd charges on pumps. I think the idea is that the feds had the same sort of bypass for pumps before 2004.

 

[nstassel]

- I asked Glidden about shotgun tubes >5 rds in front of 200 chiefs and LOs at his seminar back some years ago and his answer was that EOPS had issued some opinion that a >5 rd tube on a tube-fed shotgun could never be an LCFD.

Interesting. Isn't that Crackpot?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Whereas the KSG is a pump, the TS12 is semiauto. Of course, for me this is purely an academic curiosity.

I was strictly addressing the LCFD issue that everyone above was talking about. Many think that the mag ban only applies to semi-autos and it is separate and apart from that in MGL.

Lol the KSG is a pump and not an AW, and the KSG, 870, 590, etc are covered by a bunch of other weird debateable gnomish mysticism that prevents lcafd charges on pumps. I think the idea is that the feds had the same sort of bypass for pumps before 2004.

See my comment above.

The Feds and MGL ONLY "bypass" was for tubular fed .22LR and no other caliber/gauge. That's in the black and white laws. There was no other bypass in the written law.

 

[CrackPot]

Interesting. Isn't that Crackpot?

MGL 140 121 definition of large capacity weapon excludes pump, lever, bolt, etc. So while a LCFD is anything over 5 rounds for a shotgun, for a pump, the weapon itself is not large capacity. This sets up a problem where charging for LCFD on a pump is essentially impossible. So bringing up the KSG is a red herring. It is pump.

But no such exemption exists for semi-auto. We all know lots of dealers that regularly sell semi-autos with 6+ round capacity in a tube. By a simple reading of the law this is not lawful.

Gliddens comments I care about as much as I care about his opinions on what a dealer audit is which in his book is about 70% incorrect relative to the written law. I don't.

That EOPS has an opinion contrary to the law is also not surprising. Reading 501CMR7 and how they create this completely irrational construct about a gun not being large capacity if a large capacity mag is not inserted or partially inserted in it (making the ruger 10/22 lawful for FID holders) shows that EOPS is not above making shit up.

This of course is all theoretical outside criminal case making a determination of fact that such and such is or is not a LCFD.

I think inmates of MA taking possession of a TS12 is not a low risk decision. You can make all the arguments you want, but a simple reading of the law is against you. You might have a defense if there is written opinion by EOPS about tube fed semi-autos. Outside of that, good luck

 

[drgrant]

The Feds and MGL ONLY "bypass" was for tubular fed .22LR and no other caliber/gauge. That's in the black and white laws. There was no other bypass in the written law.

Then why did dealers sell pumps during the AWB that held more than 5rds? The feds obviously bypassed/exempted it somehow. Otherwise my friend wouldn't have been able to get his 590 during the ban.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Then why did dealers sell pumps during the AWB that held more than 5rds? The feds obviously bypassed/exempted it somehow. Otherwise my friend wouldn't have been able to get his 590 during the ban.

I think that it was ignored. I recall reading (probably on ARfcom) that BATFE admitted that nobody was prosecuted for that during the Fed ban. I'm not saying this was true, only that I recall reading it (I didn't save any info/citation).

 

[Drix]

All I want for Christmas this year is a semi-auto bullpup shotgun not made of plastic, that loads 3" 12g shells with a reasonable round capacity out of a removable magazine.

Is this it? Probably not.

 

[drgrant]

I think that it was ignored. I recall reading (probably on ARfcom) that BATFE admitted that nobody was prosecuted for that during the Fed ban. I'm not saying this was true, only that I recall reading it (I didn't save any info/citation).

I find that hard to believe because then manufacturers (like mossberg) would not have been selling pump shotguns that easily held more than 5 rounds. Unless it was a deal where they just threw a 3rd waterfowl plug in the thing and called it a day and that was enough to keep the ATF away. I'll have to ask my friend if he had to remove a dowel from his 590 but it doesn't seem likely given that its basically set up as a riot gun.