Surviving Edged Weapons (1988) - Firearm reaction times & more

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SpringShield

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Hello,

I'm curious to know if anyone here is familiar with a training video called "Surviving Edged Weapons" from 1988. It was apparently meant for training LEOs and included graphic, yet informative, reenactments (and even autopsy photos).

There is a section that deals with distance of a blade-wielding attacker vs. an average LEO who has to pull their firearm from its holster, which has been a topic of conversation on this forum several times in the past. It also shows a wide variety of improvised weapons, most of which I never would have even dreamed of, personally.

-------

Due to its graphic nature, I'm opting to not post direct links, so as to not offend the code of conduct. Its IMDb page is here.

You can find the video in its entirety on YouTube. Total run time is about 1 hour, 24 minutes.

Alternatively, you can watch RedLetterMedia's "Best of the Worst: Wheel of the Worst #16" beginning at time-code 31:41 for a round-table movie review that highlights some of the more interesting parts, and blocks out some of the most graphic depictions in the film.

------

So, again, I'd like to know if any of you have seen it before. Do you have a plan for a close quarters encounter?

I know there are LEOs who participate in this forum; if you're one of them, was this video part of your training?
 
7 yards = Death

iu

I'm more of a "Faces of Death" guy...
 
SpringShield said:
Hello,

I'm curious to know if anyone here is familiar with a training video called "Surviving Edged Weapons" from 1988. It was apparently meant for training LEOs and included graphic, yet informative, reenactments (and even autopsy photos).

There is a section that deals with distance of a blade-wielding attacker vs. an average LEO who has to pull their firearm from its holster, which has been a topic of conversation on this forum several times in the past. It also shows a wide variety of improvised weapons, most of which I never would have even dreamed of, personally.

-------

Due to its graphic nature, I'm opting to not post direct links, so as to not offend the code of conduct. Its IMDb page is here.

You can find the video in its entirety on YouTube. Total run time is about 1 hour, 24 minutes.

Alternatively, you can watch RedLetterMedia's "Best of the Worst: Wheel of the Worst #16" beginning at time-code 31:41 for a round-table movie review that highlights some of the more interesting parts, and blocks out some of the most graphic depictions in the film.

------

So, again, I'd like to know if any of you have seen it before. Do you have a plan for a close quarters encounter?

I know there are LEOs who participate in this forum; if you're one of them, was this video part of your training?
Click to expand...
I remember it. Taught me to not underestimate an edged weapon versus a firearm!!! 20 feet or less and you’re dead.
 
Last edited:
SpringShield said:
Hello,

I'm curious to know if anyone here is familiar with a training video called "Surviving Edged Weapons" from 1988. It was apparently meant for training LEOs and included graphic, yet informative, reenactments (and even autopsy photos).

There is a section that deals with distance of a blade-wielding attacker vs. an average LEO who has to pull their firearm from its holster, which has been a topic of conversation on this forum several times in the past. It also shows a wide variety of improvised weapons, most of which I never would have even dreamed of, personally.

-------

Due to its graphic nature, I'm opting to not post direct links, so as to not offend the code of conduct. Its IMDb page is here.

You can find the video in its entirety on YouTube. Total run time is about 1 hour, 24 minutes.

Alternatively, you can watch RedLetterMedia's "Best of the Worst: Wheel of the Worst #16" beginning at time-code 31:41 for a round-table movie review that highlights some of the more interesting parts, and blocks out some of the most graphic depictions in the film.

------

So, again, I'd like to know if any of you have seen it before. Do you have a plan for a close quarters encounter?

I know there are LEOs who participate in this forum; if you're one of them, was this video part of your training?
Click to expand...
The topic was part of my encounter/survival training but not this video series. I did a quick preview and it looks well done and informative. I'll have to watch it over the weekend.
 
A friend and I used to practice this from 21feet with a holstered concealed (unloaded) weapon. Neither of us were sprinters in any shape of the word, but pistol prevailed by half a step or one step, and I knew he was coming.

If it is dark or you hesitate with a determined attacker, you could be in real danger at 7 yards.
 
This is still used during police academy APP (Applied Patrol Procedures) where the class goes hands on for a week of training with SIMS and role players.

I was an active shooter response instructor for 10+yrs and always enjoyed watching the reactions at this station as well.

An officer (role player) in street clothes would stand with his back turned and a training blade in his hand. The recruit officer would be placed 21’ feet away with a holstered SIMS pistol. After the initial command to drop the knife, the role player would turn and run at the recruit, even knowing it’s a training scenario some of the recruits would completely freeze up, drop their pistol in their haste to draw and even saw a couple of them just turn and run away.

The majority of them were able to get off 1-2 shots on the attacker but even that was when the role player was literally only a foot away from them and still charging.

It’s a good stressor and effective training scenario. You’d think when viewing it that 21’ is plenty of space to be able to assess, draw and fire effectively but when it’s happening it is very fast from start to end.

I’ve heard some people say it’s BS or not effective training (21’ Foot Rule) but having seen it firsthand for dozens of academy classes I was involved in I would have to disagree, I think it’s a very effective training scenario.
 
I took LFI-1 many years back. Many of the students were not in particularly good shape. We timed everyone in the group starting from flat-footed to 21’. All of us covered that distance in less than 2 seconds. Someone with a blade can be on you in a heartbeat.
 
cams said:
This is still used during police academy APP (Applied Patrol Procedures) where the class goes hands on for a week of training with SIMS and role players.

I was an active shooter response instructor for 10+yrs and always enjoyed watching the reactions at this station as well.

An officer (role player) in street clothes would stand with his back turned and a training blade in his hand. The recruit officer would be placed 21’ feet away with a holstered SIMS pistol. After the initial command to drop the knife, the role player would turn and run at the recruit, even knowing it’s a training scenario some of the recruits would completely freeze up, drop their pistol in their haste to draw and even saw a couple of them just turn and run away.

The majority of them were able to get off 1-2 shots on the attacker but even that was when the role player was literally only a foot away from them and still charging.

It’s a good stressor and effective training scenario. You’d think when viewing it that 21’ is plenty of space to be able to assess, draw and fire effectively but when it’s happening it is very fast from start to end.

I’ve heard some people say it’s BS or not effective training (21’ Foot Rule) but having seen it firsthand for dozens of academy classes I was involved in I would have to disagree, I think it’s a very effective training scenario.
Click to expand...



A friend and I did that exercise in a training pit with an unloaded firearm. And even when you KNOW it's coming, it's hard to draw and fire into a guy coming at you full tilt from 21 feet away starting with a holstered firearm. Now imagine not knowing it's coming. It's a very sobering exercise.

I spend a fair bit of time "load and make ready, shooter ready, stand by, beep!" - That's entirely different that going about my daily life. If a predator comes for me - he chooses the time and place - all I can do is react. 21 feet running is nothing to cross, no time. Normalcy bias says that I'm behind the curve.
 
allen-1 said:
A friend and I did that exercise in a training pit with an unloaded firearm. And even when you KNOW it's coming, it's hard to draw and fire into a guy coming at you full tilt from 21 feet away starting with a holstered firearm. Now imagine not knowing it's coming. It's a very sobering exercise.

I spend a fair bit of time "load and make ready, shooter ready, stand by, beep!" - That's entirely different that going about my daily life. If a predator comes for me - he chooses the time and place - all I can do is react. 21 feet running is nothing to cross, no time. Normalcy bias says that I'm behind the curve.
Click to expand...

Yes, and consider that the recruits are using OWB holsters with no interference from clothing, for us on the street in civies we’d still need to raise up the clothing concealing the firearm and then conduct the action in the same time period. We’d all be behind the power curve.
 
Best story that Mas Ayoob told about the Tueller drill was about one particular student. The student was an NES member (not sure if he is still around, though). Nice guy. I bought a gun from him.

Anyhow, on his first step, this fellow broke his leg in a spiral fracture. He continued and finished the 21’ in less than 3 seconds, before getting carted off to the ER.
 
Anyhow, on his first step, this fellow broke his leg in a spiral fracture. He continued and finished the 21’ in less than 3 seconds, before getting carted off to the ER.
Click to expand...
I remember that student showing me the internal fixation hardware and screws after removal.

Ayoob sent the guy a get well card with wording very close to "I wish you the best in recovering from the optional in-class exercise that you were under no obligation to participate in".

That student's web sites appear inactive, and LinkedIn show him as having moved to the Pittsburgh area.
 
If the guy is completely crazy and running at you full speed, you might actually be better off not attempting to draw the gun and instead focus on moving and dodging the attack and then putting some distance between you and THEN drawing the gun. A weapon is no good if you cannot wield it.
 
If you watch the video, he is demonstrating exactly that he couldn't draw in time without dodging the guy with the knife. He even admits that without some sort of warning he would probably be stabbed no matter what if attacked from behind.

The only way I'm executing some of those rolls he did is if I tripped or was going down anyway.
 
A planned attack / surprise attack you are done.
As a victim if you first thought is to go for the draw in that scenario,you are done.
In an ambush, you have to attack. ( against your instincts, but that is where training is supposed to help)
Not everyone makes it out, but being opened up from behind while your reaching for your blockid gun, gets you the same results.
 
Randy Lahey said:
I remember it. Taught me to not underestimate an edged weapon versus a firearm!!! 20 feet or less and you’re dead.
Click to expand...

I do as well.

What I remember is that if you do not already have your weapon drawn when being charged by a suspect holding an edged weapon within 21ft of you, be prepared to get stabbed...
 
f*** all that. The nonchalance of that officer closest to camera man walking over the fence is a good summary of the IQ levels at play. Zero situational awareness.
 

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