Supreme Court - NYSRPA v. Bruen - Megathread

[MaverickNH]

Opinion


In other words - Here's some rope. Do what's right or we kick the chair

While the pundits are breathlessly gesticulating, the anti-gun legal academy seems to be reserving comment on the SCOTUS denial and the Alito/Thomas statement allowing the 2ndC to get’ r done quick. They’ve pretty much exhausted their spaghetti supply hoping some thrown will stick to the wall. This should be interesting…

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

It's no longer one state or two that are passing AWB laws. It's pretty much all states where the legislature is shilling for Bloomberg. Are we going to spend money and years fighting each state now? How is this progress?

 

[pastera]

While the pundits are breathlessly gesticulating, the anti-gun legal academy seems to be reserving comment on the SCOTUS denial and the Alito/Thomas statement allowing the 2ndC to get’ r done quick. They’ve pretty much exhausted their spaghetti supply hoping some thrown will stick to the wall. This should be interesting…

The anti's only comments I've seen that actually analyze Alito's response ignore the "or else" part and just talk about how the far right part of the court finally made a correct decision.

I don't think most people understand that all of these anti-2a laws and the circuit court decisions supporting them are just allowing a much broader opinion from SCOTUS.
Bruen's dicta concerning Text, History and Tradition was far reaching and broad but the actual decision was scalpel precise. Lower courts are informed by dicta but only constrained by the actual decisions.
Those same lower courts are in forceful non-compliance with that dicta therefore opening up the question to SCOTUS to turn T,H&T from dicta to decision.

Question is if the anti states push hard enough that Miller comes before the court again. If it does it won't be a one sided argument this time and with stare decisis taking second place to Constitutional text, Miller will fall and take down much of what came after.

 

[Picton]

It's no longer one state or two that are passing AWB laws. It's pretty much all states where the legislature is shilling for Bloomberg. Are we going to spend money and years fighting each state now? How is this progress?

Asked and answered.

Yes we will, because that's how Constitutional civil rights issues get decided in a country where states are sovereign. And it's progress because of the text/history test.

Not to sound like a broken record, but we're in the same place the civil rights movement was in about 1955: the end was inevitable. It just took time to get there.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Question is if the anti states push hard enough that Miller comes before the court again. If it does it won't be a one sided argument this time and with stare decisis taking second place to Constitutional text, Miller will fall and take down much of what came after.

 

[KBCraig]

It's no longer one state or two that are passing AWB laws. It's pretty much all states where the legislature is shilling for Bloomberg. Are we going to spend money and years fighting each state now? How is this progress?

Yes we will, because that's how progress is made.

Do you not think that Heller, McDonald, and Bruen were progress over the state of things 40 years ago?

 

[xtry51]

Yes we will, because that's how progress is made.

Do you not think that Heller, McDonald, and Bruen were progress over the state of things 40 years ago?

Not really. The only reason I am freer now than 40 uears ago is because I left CT for NH and NH state laws were repealed and CC put in place. None of that was federal.

If I had stayed in CT the laws did nothing but get worse. And look at all the lib states passing insane laws after Bruen.

The problem isn't the rulings. The problem is the complete lack of penalties for anyone who passes and unconstitutional law. People who pass these laws, enforce these laws with arrests, prosecuted the people arrested and judges who didn't immediately dismiss the cases and order the cops and prosecutors arrested for kidnapping all need to be in prison. 10 years minimum. Maximum possible is 10 years plus the total maximum possible for every false arrest. If the total is over 20 years you get death penalty automatic.

Either people start dying in prison or hanging from the gallows or nothing will change because tyrants will simply continue to pass laws faster than they are struck down.

 

[KBCraig]

Not really. The only reason I am freer now than 40 uears ago is because I left CT for NH and NH state laws were repealed and CC put in place. None of that was federal.

If I had stayed in CT the laws did nothing but get worse. And look at all the lib states passing insane laws after Bruen.

Welcome to NH, but in case you didn't notice, there are other states besides CT and NH.

Most of them were getting better before Bruen, and only a handful of holdouts are sticking to their pre-Bruen obstinance.

 

[Coyote33]

...
I don't think most people understand that all of these anti-2a laws and the circuit court decisions supporting them are just allowing a much broader opinion from SCOTUS.

So far, that is just a hope for the future.

Bruen's dicta concerning Text, History and Tradition was far reaching and broad but the actual decision was scalpel precise. Lower courts are informed by dicta but only constrained by the actual decisions.
Those same lower courts are in forceful non-compliance with that dicta therefore opening up the question to SCOTUS to turn T,H&T from dicta to decision.

It doesn't matter, if they are passing laws faster than they can be overturned. The result is that they are disarming entire states.

...
Question is if the anti states push hard enough that Miller comes before the court again. If it does it won't be a one sided argument this time and with stare decisis taking second place to Constitutional text, Miller will fall and take down much of what came after.

"Miller" from the 1930's? How do you figure that? We're still stuck in New York, and not even touching CA, NJ, CT, MD, MA, etc.

It's a whole new world now, after Bruen. They can try, and maybe they will, and maybe they'll get away with it for a while. But The Times They Are a-Changin'.

Not in the right direction in MA, and I guess CT right now also.

Either people start dying in prison or hanging from the gallows or nothing will change because tyrants will simply continue to pass laws faster than they are struck down.

Sad but true. What I was saying up above ^^.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

This video title references breaking news and CA, but really it is a general discussion of the attempts at historical analogs that gun control advocates are going to try and put forward in hope of overcome the text and tradition requirement set down by Bruen.

Informative video where Mark categories the angles gun grabbers are likely to come at us from.

 

[pastera]

So far, that is just a hope for the future.


It doesn't matter, if they are passing laws faster than they can be overturned. The result is that they are disarming entire states.


"Miller" from the 1930's? How do you figure that? We're still stuck in New York, and not even touching CA, NJ, CT, MD, MA, etc.


Not in the right direction in MA, and I guess CT right now also.


Sad but true. What I was saying up above ^^.

Explain this:


You might not like the pace or the path but the ultimate destination is more 2a freedom.
You question all of the pro 2a predictions here and are quick to point out the anti's wins but utterly fail to recognize when our predictions are fulfilled.

 

[xtry51]

Explain this:

View attachment 709104
You might not like the pace or the path but the ultimate destination is more 2a freedom.
You question all of the pro 2a predictions here and are quick to point out the anti's wins but utterly fail to recognize when our predictions are fulfilled.

All of those gains are from state level laws. None of that chart has to do with SCOTUS protecting your rights.

 

[pastera]

All of those gains are from state level laws. None of that chart has to do with SCOTUS protecting your rights.

So Heller, McDonald, Caetano and now Bruen had nothing to do with those changes?
Or the hundreds of circuit level wins that precipitated from those major holdings (Caetano was major but really as a tool in other cases)

 

[Picton]

So Heller, McDonald, Caetano and now Bruen had nothing to do with those changes?
Or the hundreds of circuit level wins that precipitated from those major holdings (Caetano was major but really as a tool in other cases)

SMH.

"All that happened in MA in response to Bruen was that restrictions went away! And we became de facto shall-issue! When will the REAL improvements start????"

Like those things are meaningless. They were the two worst infringements in the entire state licensing scheme, and they went away without a fight from TPTB. And it only took a couple weeks after Bruen. And yet, now, they're going to rise up and go Full Hochul?

I just don't see it. Really, truly, honestly, I do not understand that logic. I'd still love an explanation that goes farther than, "I'm pessimistic because the MA legislature has never been pro-2A."

 

[pastera]

SMH.

"All that happened in MA in response to Bruen was that restrictions went away! And we became de facto shall-issue! When will the REAL improvements start????"

Like those things are meaningless. They were the two worst infringements in the entire state licensing scheme, and they went away without a fight from TPTB. And it only took a couple weeks after Bruen. And yet, now, they're going to rise up and go Full Hochul?

I just don't see it. Really, truly, honestly, I do not understand that logic. I'd still love an explanation that goes farther than, "I'm pessimistic because the MA legislature has never been pro-2A."

Exactly
Add Bruen's Text, History and Tradition scrutiny to Caetano's direct assertion of Heller's definition of covered arms (taking it from dicta to finding) and you have a powerful tool against the anti's emotional rhetoric.

 

[Mass-diver]

I have had a unrestricted carry license in MA for 20yrs. I live under the AWB, the absurd “consumer protection” pistol roster, and I’m concerned about what’s coming down the road. BUT, many, many people in Ma were previously denied the right to carry via “hunting & target restrictions,”

I would have never guessed in a million year that would have ever changed. They are gone now. It’s a huge victory. There are more to come, it just might get worse before it gets better. The Supreme Court stuff is once in a generation, it is going to have a impact, especially in lib states.

 

[Coyote33]

NH state laws were repealed and CC put in place

Every year here, we read about how NH legislature is getting more and more liberal, and how they almost passed xyz gun control law. A lot of people have worked hard to avoid that, and some luck has also come in. They are still on the edge, but hopefully the supreme court will help keep them on the right side.

You might not like the pace or the path but the ultimate destination is more 2a freedom.
You question all of the pro 2a predictions here and are quick to point out the anti's wins but utterly fail to recognize when our predictions are fulfilled.

Not sure if this was for/toward me, but I agree with the first sentence. My problem is with the timing. You guys speak like it is right around the corner, then when questioned on it, you yell "SLOW DOWN, THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT!", as if we were demanding that. Quick to point fingers at those speaking practically.

All of those gains are from state level laws. None of that chart has to do with SCOTUS protecting your rights.

Very true. Nobody is arguing the country as a whole is doing better. But the bad states are not. Right now, New York is being held up from more BS, but not seeing much for results elsewhere. Hope that happens in 2023.

SMH.
"All that happened in MA in response to Bruen was that restrictions went away! And we became de facto shall-issue! When will the REAL improvements start????"
Like those things are meaningless. They were the two worst infringements in the entire state licensing scheme, and they went away without a fight from TPTB. And it only took a couple weeks after Bruen. And yet, now, they're going to rise up and go Full Hochul?
I just don't see it. Really, truly, honestly, I do not understand that logic. I'd still love an explanation that goes farther than, "I'm pessimistic because the MA legislature has never been pro-2A."

Agree with everything up to "Full Hochul", keeping in mind it improved a lot of things for a lot of gun owners in MA, but certainly did NOT improve things for MOST gun owners in MA.

We can throw in there that our new governor is smarter than New York's. That does NOT mean that our legislature is. That also does not mean they won't plop a new bill on her desk. Do you really think if they put a gun control bill on her desk, that she WOULD NOT SIGN IT? Be honest.

Exactly
Add Bruen's Text, History and Tradition scrutiny to Caetano's direct assertion of Heller's definition of covered arms (taking it from dicta to finding) and you have a powerful tool against the anti's emotional rhetoric.

This is a bunch of speculation at this point. I wish what you say is true, but it is just too far out to speculate with this opinion/suggestion.

 

[Coyote33]

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/CnZspEBy4vg/

 

[Picton]

We can throw in there that our new governor is smarter than New York's. That does NOT mean that our legislature is. That also does not mean they won't plop a new bill on her desk. Do you really think if they put a gun control bill on her desk, that she WOULD NOT SIGN IT? Be honest.

I just posted about this in some other thread.

Competent politicians (and Healy and Mariano are very good politicians) won't let a controversial bill get to the executive branch at all. They will ensure it dies in the legislature. That way, nobody is embarrassed and everyone looks good.

 

[general disorder]

I have to wonder if Democrats are passing these laws knowing their going to lose so they can raise more money in the future. It's not like Democrats care about what their actions actually do. Or pretty much consequences for anything. One would think that knowing that their probably going to lose the precious assault weapons ban that they wouldn't push things faster then they should. Yet here we are. If their laws get overturned then they would just go back to their donors demanding more money. These people are such zealots with unlimited pockets that they would just spend more. Just a thought.

 

[Coyote33]

I just posted about this opinion in some other thread.
Competent politicians (and Healy and Mariano are very good politicians) won't let a controversial bill get to the executive branch at all. They will ensure it dies in the legislature. That way, nobody is embarrassed and everyone looks good.

FIFY.

 

[Picton]

FIFY.

Then give me a counterexample of this thing you're so afraid of: a rogue legislator going against the priorities of the governor and the Speaker, pushing an unconstitutional bill through the House, and daring the governor to veto it.

Show me where that's happened in recent MA political history. Since you seem to think it's such a definite possibility, it must happen all the time... no?

 

[Coyote33]

Then give me a counterexample of this thing you're so afraid of: a rogue legislator going against what is in my opinion, the priorities of the governor and the Speaker, pushing an, in my opinion, unconstitutional bill through the House, and daring the governor to veto it.
Show me where that's happened in recent MA political history. Since you seem to think it's such a definite possibility, it must happen all the time... no?

FIFY again.

You are talking about your opinion on bills that haven't even happened yet, and attacking me for pointing this out? Nobody knows what is coming, and you speak your opinions as if they are fact.

 

[JonathonEmergency]

Gun control in the US is over. We just have to wait for a few cases to make their way through the system and then it will be completely dead.

The usual suspects will scream and yell about it to keep getting elected, but it’s over for the most part.

A fantastic F-You from Clarence Thomas to the democrats.

 

[Picton]

FIFY again.

You are talking about your opinion on bills that haven't even happened yet, and attacking me for pointing this out? Nobody knows what is coming, and you speak your opinions as if they are fact.

I know how legislation works in the real world. I'm not sure you do, frankly.

 

[42!]

Gun control in the US is over. We just have to wait for a few cases to make their way through the system and then it will be completely dead.

The usual suspects will scream and yell about it to keep getting elected, but it’s over for the most part.

A fantastic F-You from Clarence Thomas to the democrats.

You must be young, or irrationally idealistic, gun control is political, it swings like a pendulum. Over time the best you'll get is limited gun control. There are no absolutes in the world, gun control is no different.

 

[Coyote33]

I have an opinion on how legislation works in the real world. I'm not sure you do, frankly.

FIFY again.

You keep stating your opinion as if it were fact.

 

[SFC13557]

You must be young, or irrationally idealistic, gun control is political, it swings like a pendulum. Over time the best you'll get is limited gun control. There are no absolutes in the world, gun control is no different.

As long as there are Leftists walking the streets of America and in positions of power they will continue to push gun control. They have huge donors, ask Hunter Biden who's buying his finger paintings ($500,000 a painting) and paying his legal bills which I read are around 100K a MONTH.
Disarming Americans is a core belief of the Left BUT it seems it could be taking a back seat to Climate Change and Queer Nation/woke culture.
They seem to think they'll have more success banning fossil fuels, gas stoves, certain pronouns, etc. than guns because of the current Supreme Court.
We'll soon see!

 

[JonathonEmergency]

You must be young, or irrationally idealistic

I’m neither of those things.

With the Bruen ruling added to Heller, Mcdonald and Caetano, there is basically nowhere for the gun controllers to go at this point.

 

[SFC13557]

I’m neither of those things.

With the Bruen ruling added to Heller, Mcdonald and Caetano, there is basically nowhere for the gun controllers to go at this point.

Remember, leftists have vowed NOT to obey laws they don't believe in, and they don't believe Americans should be armed with AR's, AK's and semi-auto pistols.
Leftist's don't believe in free speech for their opposition because we produce "misinformation" which counters their narrative's.
They're playing the long game.