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Supreme Court - NYSRPA v. Bruen - Megathread

Any research done before Bruen hit is basically meaningless, other than as a guide as to which towns are more likely to try to push the edges.

There really hasn't been enough time for any useful data since Bruen.

So, no, I haven't done any public info requests.

My understanding (from, you know, "crap on The Internet") is that the CLEO cannot anymore deny anyone because they don't like your reasons or your haircut or because "we don't give out licences to anyone but cops and lawyers". They now have to come up with real, articulatable reasons for denying, reasons that will stand up in court when challenged. Not just "I got a hunch", or "too many speeding tickets".

So, yea, there will be some people who might still get caught by suitability, but the reasons have to be way, way better than before. That means, for most people, it doesn't really matter anymore.

Hense, "de facto"
What I think we have here is a lack of understanding of suitability as applied in MA.

Currently, even before Bruen, it requires an articulable reason. They cannot just say all of any group can't have an LTC. This is why it survives Bruen, it's individual. But the court still applies the "broad discretion" standard that existed prior to 2015. Effectively this only mean that whatever the reason given is, they don't really need to clearly articulate it. And the law on suitability has absolutely nothing to do with providing a reason for issue. Please, read the actual law.

As for the "stand up in court" , you need to remember that this is NOT a trial with all the process and standards that go along with that. It is an administrative hearing. So hearsay is admissible, there are no witnesses, there is no questioning or cross examination. In fact the LO isn't likely to even be there, providing just a written statement. That statement will be taken as fact and since the LO isn't even there, there can be no question of it's validity. So for example a statement of "the applicant appeared to be agitated, even aggressive, during the interview, causing me to be concerned how he may react during a stressful situation should he have a firearm in his possession", meets the requirements for a suitability denial, and will be taken as fact without question. And no, you do not have a right to question the source. (this statement does not come from my own suitability hearing, it's just an example).

Add to all this that the AG came out AFTER Bruen and made it clear that sutability as MA uses it is still OK, why would any department change how they apply it.

There was a comment that if it was still happening we would hear about it. WHY? NES isn't that well known and certainly not to a new applicant. The chances that they happen across the small group of 2a focused lawyers that post here is similarly unlikely. Heck, I was a gun dealer in MA and NH and I didn't know about NES until 2010. And the PDs certainly aren't advertising this. I know there were 100s before Bruen, I don't see them mentioned on NES.

Another poster said something about, if there was a suitability denial it would be challenged in court now that we have Bruen. Really? This assumes the applicant is aware of Bruen and can afford the high legal costs associated with taking it beyond the administrative hearing. And before you say Comm2a, they explained it to me, the denied person would have to be "squeaky clean" for them to pick it up. And if you think about it, who would possible qualify for this and still be called unsuitable. In my case it revolved around my divorce, and even though there was no accusation of any type from my ex, even had a written statement where she stated she had no reason I shouldn't have an LTC, the existence of the divorce made it too "complicated".

What it comes down to is you haven't heard of any so you assume they don't exist. But you never heard of the 100s that happened before Bruen either, yet they certainly exist. You assumption is based on seriously flawed logic.
 
Currently, even before Bruen, it requires an articulable reason. They cannot just say all of any group can't have an LTC. This is why it survives Bruen, it's individual. But the court still applies the "broad discretion" standard that existed prior to 2015. Effectively this only mean that whatever the reason given is, they don't really need to clearly articulate it. And the law on suitability has absolutely nothing to do with providing a reason for issue. Please, read the actual law.
The current MA law is based on dangerousness, but the district courts tend to use the old "any reason as long as the issuing authority thought it was appropriate" established in Moyer v Shelburne. Court decisions have held that denied applicants do not have the right to confront their accuser; even know who their accuser is; and that the issuing authority may use hearsay evidence as well las non-convictions (even findings of not guilty) as the basis.

The thing you refer to is a district court hearing and, if one uses representation, costs $3000 and up. The issuing authority or representative will be there, but not necessarily the LEO who wrote a report replete with unflattering innuendo that will be used against you.

What the system is ripe for is a federal case - can you deny a constitutional right without due process including the assumption of innocence, rules of evidence required to deprive one of any other constitutional right (I believe the 2A is the only one where heresay may be used to strip you of the right)?
 

This is a new term to me...

“The issue in this lawsuit is very plain,” said SAF founder and Executive Vice President Alan M. Gottlieb. “Both Sears and Lane are law-abiding New York residents who wish to own modern semiautomatic sport-utility rifles

1cwZST5.jpg



🐯
 
Thank you. You were able to hit all points I was referring to.

Suitability IS a thing in MA, and does not seem to be going anywhere for the time being. This thread doesn't talk about MA suitability, it is about NY state for the most part, right? Oh, and I totally agree that "NES" is not as well known as some people might think it is. Stuff is happening outside of what gets mentioned here, period.
 
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What the system is ripe for is a federal case - can you deny a constitutional right without due process including the assumption of innocence, rules of evidence required to deprive one of any other constitutional right (I believe the 2A is the only one where heresay may be used to strip you of the right)?

This. A number of you still do not seem to understand that Thomas' Text and History test changes the fundamental judicial landscape for ALL gun cases that make it into the federal courts.

Once any of our restrictions get to that level, the whole house of cards falls. Until it does, those laws stay on the books... but are not used. Because the state won't want to pull a Hochul and make things worse for themselves.

As has been said many times, those posters in this thread who don't want to understand the ripple effects of Bruen are going to continue to believe nothing has changed. Very well. They'll figure it out, if ever the federal bench takes any of these issues before it.
 
The problem with the US system is people are not put in jail immediately for passing unconstitutional laws. If you vote for, arrest some one for, prosecute someone for or are a judge that presides over a case enforcing an unconstitutional law, you should automatically go to jail for 10 years, be banned from all public offices and jobs for life and have to repay all salary you earned while in that position.
 
What the system is ripe for is a federal case
changes the fundamental judicial landscape for ALL gun cases that make it into the federal courts.
THIS is the problem here in this thread.

People keep flipping back and forth from New York state proceedings, then try to talk about it as if it were having an impact in Massachusetts or other states, then chastise people for being confused when they think it will.

How about this thread deals with NYSRPA v. Bruen, and another one gets started for everything else?
 
THIS is the problem here in this thread.

People keep flipping back and forth from New York state proceedings, then try to talk about it as if it were having an impact in Massachusetts or other states, then chastise people for being confused when they think it will.

How about this thread deals with NYSRPA v. Bruen, and another one gets started for everything else?
We did this already, back in October, and the solution is still the same.


Check out that chain of posts. You still need to go teach yourself how state vs federal court systems operate. To most of the rest of us? This thread is making perfect sense.

If it’s not? Maybe you’re the problem.
 
Check out that chain of posts. You still need to go teach yourself how state vs federal court systems operate. To most of the rest of us? This thread is making perfect sense.

If it’s not? Maybe you’re the problem.
Oh I get it. You just want to have it both ways, and get grumpy when called out on it. Otherwise, you give some good info from time to time.
 
I certainly don't agree with it. That said, the NRA Basic Pistol class that meets MA standards is supposed to take 10 hours. So 18 isn't an order of magnitude more. Time will tell whether that holds up to further review. (Let me be clear, while I think people should get some training before buying a gun, I do not, in any way, agree with legal mandates that require training.)

Yes, the practical impact will be to ensure that the poors, who can't afford to take time off from work and can't afford hundreds of $ for training courses, won't be able to meet the requirements, and thus won't be able to get a gun legally. That, of course, is the whole point of gun control -- it is racist to its very core.
The NRA "Home Firearms Safety Class" meets the requirements and takes only four hours.
 
This. A number of you still do not seem to understand that Thomas' Text and History test changes the fundamental judicial landscape for ALL gun cases that make it into the federal courts.

Once any of our restrictions get to that level, the whole house of cards falls. Until it does, those laws stay on the books... but are not used. Because the state won't want to pull a Hochul and make things worse for themselves.

As has been said many times, those posters in this thread who don't want to understand the ripple effects of Bruen are going to continue to believe nothing has changed. Very well. They'll figure it out, if ever the federal bench takes any of these issues before it.
I assume most of those people are the same who ignored the warnings about the changes to the NRA bylaws that installed Wayne as EVP for life.

Why they refuse to understand that precedent has changed IDK. What remains to be seen is if lower courts follow the SCOTUS' ruling and the chances are that the typical circuits are going to interpret things in a way that flies completely opposite of Bruen, like what we saw in the RI magazine case.
 
I assume most of those people are the same who ignored the warnings about the changes to the NRA bylaws that installed Wayne as EVP for life.

Why they refuse to understand that precedent has changed IDK. What remains to be seen is if lower courts follow the SCOTUS' ruling and the chances are that the typical circuits are going to interpret things in a way that flies completely opposite of Bruen, like what we saw in the RI magazine case.
They already are, like that dude in RI. It happens. It won’t last. Bruen is not going anywhere, but those judges are.
 
The number not requiring a license is much higher than 26. Many states don’t require a license to open carry.
How many?


... Do you not realize that Bruen made Massachusetts change its policies about license restrictions? Or that red towns are now green because of Bruen? Or that MA has not tried anything as stupid as deliberately passing an even more restrictive set of statutes as a direct challenge to SCOTUS?

If MA was anywhere near as bad as NYS, we’d be talking more about MA here. But MA chose not to lose its mind after Bruen; instead, it made changes to avoid notice by SCOTUS.
I thought people have been saying EXACTLY THAT is coming with the new year and new governor and new AG.


Except for reference letters, turtling, and general obstructionism. That stuff is liable to be around until it can get picked off somehow.....
Don't forget appointments. I wonder how that guy in Framingham is making out. LOTS of other towns also "have" appointments.
 
I thought people have been saying EXACTLY THAT is coming with the new year and new governor and new AG.
Who is saying that? What people? The resident NES pant-shitters?

Yes. They are saying that. They are not prophets; they are internet randos, desperate for panic porn.

Don't get me wrong: sure. Maybe most of us are wrong about Maura Healy, and she's a blithering idiot. Okay. No worries: in some ways, that's even better for us. That would make the showdown happen, and Healy's new quasi-Hochul law would go down hard.

And that? That is precisely why I think she'll do nothing. She is a smart lady who understands judicial supremacy and knows that innuendo and suggestion are sometimes more effective than statutes, especially when those statutes are doomed. And they would be doomed, just like Hochul's.

So relax. At best, nothing happens until, eventually, MA gun control runs out of steam, powerless to be enforced. At worst, we get a restrictive new law that immediately blows up in Healy's face. What's the downside?
 
Who is saying that? What people? ....

... Maybe most of us are wrong about Maura Healy, ... the showdown happen, and Healy's new quasi-Hochul law would go down hard.

And that? That is precisely why I think she'll do nothing. ... especially when those statutes are doomed. And they would be doomed, just like Hochul's.

... At best, nothing happens until, eventually, MA gun control runs out of steam, powerless to be enforced. At worst, we get a restrictive new law that immediately blows up in Healy's face. What's the downside?

There must be something to it. Who's saying it? Why there's:

364 posts are discussing it here:

98 posts here:

10 posts here:


Who are you to say this? You're no prophet either, you're just another "Internet rando" too. We're all in this together, pretty crappy of you to just disparage people like that.
 
??? No idea what that means, but good luck with it.

Looks like what I said here is indeed true:
Oh I get it. You just want to have it both ways, and get grumpy when called out on it...


On another note, in addition to the appointments 3 months out, is the refusal to accept applications, and exceeding deadlines for issuing licenses. So, there are still abuses happening.
 
??? No idea what that means, but good luck with it.

Looks like what I said here is indeed true:



On another note, in addition to the appointments 3 months out, is the refusal to accept applications, and exceeding deadlines for issuing licenses. So, there are still abuses happening.
Nah bro, people here get sick of explaining the same thing to you 15 times. Then get angry when you once again play the clueless old man. Then you get mad when they get sick of you.
Again, I'll summarize for you; NO ONE KNOWS what Bruen WILL mean for MA, nor what HEALDOG will do, nor what future rulings again NY will mean for MA. We can only SURMISE.
Ask your questions again in 2 years, things should be moving along by then.
 
Nah bro, people here get sick of explaining the same thing to you 15 times. Then get angry when you once again play the clueless old man. Then you get mad when they get sick of you.
Again, I'll summarize for you; NO ONE KNOWS what Bruen WILL mean for MA, nor what HEALDOG will do, nor what future rulings again NY will mean for MA. We can only SURMISE.
Ask your questions again in 2 years, things should be moving along by then.

The earliest indicators will be the case SCOTUS asked for briefs on from NY, the Duncan and Miller cases with Beneitz in California and the AWB and mag limits case from Maryland in the 4th circuit (bianchi vs Frosh) right now. We should see movement with those in the next weeks to a few months. I think we’ll know 80% of how courts will enact bruen in 18-24 months. The real interesting part will be how the circuit panels and en banc panels in the 1st, 2nd 3rd, 4th and 9th circuits will follow the dictates from bruen. Those are where the majority of anti 2 a rulings have come from
 
I probably shouldn't be, but I am always surprised that the 4th is so anti 2A.

It was one of the most conservative until Obama. Obama appointed 6 of the 16, Clinton had 3 and the current chief, roger Gregory was a Clinton nominee but the GOP senate let the nomination expire in 2000. But he dems were blocking a lot of bush judicial nominees in 2021-2022 after that pos jeffords from VT flipped to a dem and gave the dems the senate majority. Bush gave into the extortion and appointed Gregory as a sign of goodwill. Dems took it as a sign of weakness and continued to filibuster and not hold votes on many judges until the GOP took the senate in the 2022 elections.

The Obama judges on the 4th have been very activist, more so than most expected. And remember the 4th is VA, MD, WV, NC and SC. Virginia has had dem senators for a while, bth senators from WV were dem during Obama, 1 of 2 from NC was dem. And obviously both from MD were dem. So of 10 senators, 7 of the 10 were dem for almost all of Obama’s 8 years.
 
It was one of the most conservative until Obama. Obama appointed 6 of the 16, Clinton had 3 and the current chief, roger Gregory was a Clinton nominee but the GOP senate let the nomination expire in 2000. But he dems were blocking a lot of bush judicial nominees in 2021-2022 after that pos jeffords from VT flipped to a dem and gave the dems the senate majority. Bush gave into the extortion and appointed Gregory as a sign of goodwill. Dems took it as a sign of weakness and continued to filibuster and not hold votes on many judges until the GOP took the senate in the 2022 elections.

The Obama judges on the 4th have been very activist, more so than most expected. And remember the 4th is VA, MD, WV, NC and SC. Virginia has had dem senators for a while, bth senators from WV were dem during Obama, 1 of 2 from NC was dem. And obviously both from MD were dem. So of 10 senators, 7 of the 10 were dem for almost all of Obama’s 8 years.
Yup, elections have consequences and Judicial appointments definitely have consequences for us. Imagine if Hillary had won in 2016, we'd be disarmed by now. Thank God for Donald Trump which is why the Dems are in full destructo mode.
 
I commented to someone the other day that whenever those POS Democratzis talk about bipartisan efforts and cooperation they really mean that the GOPe should go along with the butt blasting in the name of good will. Being the Stupid Party, they GOPe falls for it every time.

Once the BS about Speaker is sorted out, we'll see the Democratzis call for "hands across the aisle."

BTW, I think you may have some years wrong, but your point is still completely valid.

It was one of the most conservative until Obama. Obama appointed 6 of the 16, Clinton had 3 and the current chief, roger Gregory was a Clinton nominee but the GOP senate let the nomination expire in 2000. But he dems were blocking a lot of bush judicial nominees in 2021-2022 after that pos jeffords from VT flipped to a dem and gave the dems the senate majority. Bush gave into the extortion and appointed Gregory as a sign of goodwill. Dems took it as a sign of weakness and continued to filibuster and not hold votes on many judges until the GOP took the senate in the 2022 elections.

The Obama judges on the 4th have been very activist, more so than most expected. And remember the 4th is VA, MD, WV, NC and SC. Virginia has had dem senators for a while, bth senators from WV were dem during Obama, 1 of 2 from NC was dem. And obviously both from MD were dem. So of 10 senators, 7 of the 10 were dem for almost all of Obama’s 8 years.
 

So much for Bruen being only about concealed carry.

I haven't seen a lot of analysis of this yet, happening so close to the holiday, but I have to wonder did SAF/FPC select NY because their arrogance almost certainly assures this goes all the way to SCOTUS on appeal, or perhaps as a circuit split if the remanded MD AWB case actually follows THT and goes in favor of plaintiffs?

NY blatantly giving SCOTUS the middle finger post Bruen doesn't lead one to think they wouldn't take this AWB case to the hilt, national consequences be damned, no?


🐯
 
I wouldn't discount that theory. This case could be a good combination of "ripeness" and stupidity on the part of NYS.

I haven't seen a lot of analysis of this yet, happening so close to the holiday, but I have to wonder did SAF/FPC select NY because their arrogance almost certainly assures this goes all the way to SCOTUS on appeal, or perhaps as a circuit split if the remanded MD AWB case actually follows THT and goes in favor of plaintiffs?

NY blatantly giving SCOTUS the middle finger post Bruen doesn't lead on to think they wouldn't take this AWB case to the hilt, national consequences be damned, no?


🐯
 

The underlying case decision was based on the faulty two step approach. They are basically asking it to be reviewed and decided based on the Bruen standard.
 
She also has to maintain the rule of law- what do you think would happen if one of the SCOTUs justices suddenly decided to go rogue and defy a previous ruling? She knows her hands are tied beyond following procedure here.

You guys are chatty Cathy's since Thurs or Fri. LOL

But the fact is - many here on NES think they are quite capable of JUST THAT. "We have to get rid of _____ because they'll just ignore rule of law!!!!!"

It just isn't so. It just isn't.
 
I commented to someone the other day that whenever those POS Democratzis talk about bipartisan efforts and cooperation they really mean that the GOPe should go along with the butt blasting in the name of good will. Being the Stupid Party, they GOPe falls for it every time.

Once the BS about Speaker is sorted out, we'll see the Democratzis call for "hands across the aisle."

BTW, I think you may have some years wrong, but your point is still completely valid.

Hagen in NC lost in 2014, Rockefeller in WV retired in 2014, Dems had the senate from 2006 to 2014 and had a large majority in 2009 and 2010
 
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