SU16C MA Legality

[s11033]

Hey guys,

I'm thinking about picking up a KelTec SU16C. I talked to an FFL and asked if it would be enough to pin and weld a muzzle brake since the rifle has both a folding stock and a threaded muzzle. The FFL said that I would also have to pin the folding stock for it to be legal. He said "no folding stocks in MA".

Is that correct? I was under the impression that I could have one "evil" feature on my semi-auto rifle.

Thanks,

Steve

 

[browncoat]

The FFL is wrong, you are right. The SU-16c doesn't have a separate pistol grip, which is the one "evil feature" on most ARs, so it is allowed to have a folding stock. So, pin the muzzle brake, grind off the bayonet lug (if it has one) and you should be good to go.

 

[s11033]

The FFL is wrong, you are right. The SU-16c doesn't have a separate pistol grip, which is the one "evil feature" on most ARs, so it is allowed to have a folding stock. So, pin the muzzle brake, grind off the bayonet lug (if it has one) and you should be good to go.

Roger that, thank you! I think he may have thought I was asking about a rifle with a pistol grip.

Any input on what FFLs in the Boston area will pin and weld a comp for a good price?

Best,

Steve

 

[BenDover]

The definition of “assault weapon” is the same as the federal law that went into effect on September 13, 1994. Specific guns are banned by name, and guns with certain combinations of features are banned:

a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon ;
(iii) a bayonet mount;
(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
(v) a grenade launcher;

The SU16 does not appear to have a pistol grip...you should be able to keep the folding stock. Others will chime in...

 

[browncoat]

Roger that, thank you! I think he may have thought I was asking about a rifle with a pistol grip.

Any input on what FFLs in the Boston area will pin and weld a comp for a good price?

Best,

Steve

Check out Gartman arms. Their new gunsmith used to work for 1776, did good work then and has reasonable prices now

 

[s11033]

Check out Gartman arms. Their new gunsmith used to work for 1776, did good work then and has reasonable prices now

Thanks!

Steve

 

[wiryone1]

I did not realize how freaking light the SU16C is. The Kel Tec web site says unloaded 4.7lbs! Can that be right? If so, amazing.

 

[Kahrmine]

What difference does the folding stock feature make if the rifle does not function when it's folded?

- - - Updated - - -

They actually sell a pistol grip adjustable buttstock for that. Are you suggesting this would not be legal to have in Massachusetts? The rifle does not function when folded up:

http://www.keltecweapons.com/su-16-and-su-22-rifles/su-16-and-su-22-accessories/pistol-grip-ar-stock-adapter-w-collapsible-stock/

 

[Kahrmine]

I did not realize how freaking light the SU16C is. The Kel Tec web site says unloaded 4.7lbs! Can that be right? If so, amazing.

It does not have a standard AR barrel, though. They say it gets whippy, affecting accuracy, when hot because it's thinner than typical.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

What difference does the folding stock feature make if the rifle does not function when it's folded?

- - - Updated - - -

They actually sell a pistol grip adjustable buttstock for that. Are you suggesting this would not be legal to have in Massachusetts? The rifle does not function when folded up:

http://www.keltecweapons.com/su-16-...ol-grip-ar-stock-adapter-w-collapsible-stock/

on that rifle, that stock you "linked" to would be a no-go.

 

[Youradolt]

The new one fires when folded

 

[TUGINSTRUCTOR]

I have a very close friend that has one, , and yes it was purchased through an FFL, eFA10 private sale here in MA, and Yes it can be fired with the stock folded, there is an opening for the Mag to slide through, and YES, it is very light weight, and yes, it does loose some accuracy after about 60 rounds or so when the barrel get's a bit warm from continuous firing, but he loves it and would never sell it. Has a single point sling attachment, slide it around to your back under a coat, concealed means concealed. Also, he put on a nice Precision armament compensator, pinned of course. Long as you use AR metal mags the rifle shots great, the ones that come with the rifle, are crap, they're plastic and you get mis-feeds, jams, etc etc. That's all I know.. for now.

 

[kenichi13]

i was over at shawsheen firearms in billerica, they got a MA compliant one on their show room wall. Might want to check em out

 

[browncoat]

I did not realize how freaking light the SU16C is. The Kel Tec web site says unloaded 4.7lbs! Can that be right? If so, amazing.

It's mostly plastic, and the butt stock is pretty skeletonized. That's incidentally one of the gripes some people have with the su16 rifles, the amount of plastic they use

 

[spt_1955]

I have a very close friend that has one, , and yes it was purchased through an FFL, eFA10 private sale here in MA, and Yes it can be fired with the stock folded, there is an opening for the Mag to slide through, and YES, it is very light weight, and yes, it does loose some accuracy after about 60 rounds or so when the barrel get's a bit warm from continuous firing, but he loves it and would never sell it. Has a single point sling attachment, slide it around to your back under a coat, concealed means concealed. Also, he put on a nice Precision armament compensator, pinned of course. Long as you use AR metal mags the rifle shots great, the ones that come with the rifle, are crap, they're plastic and you get mis-feeds, jams, etc etc. That's all I know.. for now.

... "...and yes, it was purchased through an FFL, efa-10 private sale here in MA..." What does that mean?

 

[wiryone1]

It's mostly plastic, and the butt stock is pretty skeletonized. That's incidentally one of the gripes some people have with the su16 rifles, the amount of plastic they use

I think it would be a perfect stow away or staging gun. Maybe fold up and stick in a pack or one of those fake tennis bags. It would be faster into action then an a broken down AR and lighter. I would still prefer an AR/AK as a main go to. But that SU would be like a cheep pistol you could integrate and more capable then a 10/22 take down.

 

[Kevin_NH]

The SU-16C has a true folding stock and can be fired with the stock folded

The new one fires when folded

There are seven models of KelTec SU-16, some, but not all, can be fired when folded.

The SU16-C stock folds "below" the grip and can fire when folded, while the "A" and "CA" models do not:

The "Charlie" model retains most features of the original SU-16, such as integrated bipod, Picatinny rail, and AR-15/M-16 magazine compatibility. The front sight is integrated into the gas block and uses an AR-15/M-16 style front sight post for elevation adjustments. The SU-16C has a true folding stock and can be fired with the stock folded. A reciprocating dust cover and a case deflecting operating handle are also integrated into the rifle. The medium weight barrel is 16" long and is threaded 1/2x28 TPI at the muzzle.

 

[browncoat]

I think it would be a perfect stow away or staging gun. Maybe fold up and stick in a pack or one of those fake tennis bags. It would be faster into action then an a broken down AR and lighter. I would still prefer an AR/AK as a main go to. But that SU would be like a cheep pistol you could integrate and more capable then a 10/22 take down.

I've been intrigued by the design since I was a teenager, and I totally agree.

 

[s11033]

Thanks for all the good info guys!

I was trying to decide between the SU16 and the Ares SCR, but I dallied too long and the AG made the decision for me... Although the SCR is by no means a copy of the AR, I can't find an FFL that will transfer one in for me!

Does anyone know an FFL that will pin and weld a muzzle brake and then transfer the rifle in to me? I've been recommended to contact Gartman Arms, but my understanding is that they only receive guns that are already legal.

Any info is appreciated.

Best,

Steve

 

[Drix]

Sorry dude, youre going to have a bad time. If anyone has this answer I hope they PM it.

 

[s11033]

Sorry dude, youre going to have a bad time. If anyone has this answer I hope they PM it.

Oh, is it not legal for an FFL to accept a firearm, modify it so that it is legal, and then transfer it?

I was not aware...

 

[Drix]

Not anymore, maybe.

Parts interchangeability and function test.

 

[rhombus]

Magazine interchangability, I'd say a no-go.

 

[s11033]

Oh wow, so no SU16s either??

 

[Drix]

Oh wow, so no SU16s either??

[h=3]Guidance:[/h]A weapon is a Copy or Duplicate and is therefore a prohibited Assault weapon if it meets one or both of the following tests and is 1) a semiautomatic rifle or handgun that was manufactured or subsequently configured with an ability to accept a detachable magazine, or 2) a semiautomatic shotgun.[SUP]3[/SUP]

1. Similarity Test: A weapon is a Copy or Duplicate if its internal functional components are substantially similar in construction and configuration to those of an Enumerated Weapon. Under this test, a weapon is a Copy or Duplicate, for example, if the operating system and firing mechanism of the weapon are based on or otherwise substantially similar to one of the Enumerated Weapons.
2. Interchangeability Test: A weapon is a Copy or Duplicate if it has a receiver that is the same as or interchangeable with the receiver of an Enumerated Weapon. A receiver will be treated as the same as or interchangeable with the receiver on an Enumerated Weapon if it includes or accepts two or more operating components that are the same as or interchangeable with those of an Enumerated Weapon. Such operating components may include, but are not limited to: 1) the trigger assembly; 2) the bolt carrier or bolt carrier group; 3) the charging handle; 4) the extractor or extractor assembly; or 5) the magazine port.

If a weapon meets one of the above tests, it is a Copy or Duplicate (and therefore a prohibited Assault weapon), even if it is marketed as “state compliant” or “Massachusetts compliant.”

 

[92G]

reading this thread is like watching homeless men argue over a parkbench that doesn't even exist. you people are your own worst enemy

 

[s11033]

For real... I just don't see why the SU16 would be banned based on that. I know of at least one gun shop in MA that has them on order.

Steve

 

[Drix]

To each their own, but functionally speaking I don't see a huge difference between how the SU116 operates and how the AR-15 operates.


**Edit** Ok, I'm going to change that, the systems are more different than I initially had thought. However, unfortunately under the guidance if the receiver takes the same magazine and one other feature (the extractor) then it is a copy. Sadly, the extractor is an interchangeable part between these two firearms. In addition, I would say the firing mechanism is substantially similar even though the bolt carrier is significantly different. Furthermore, I believe there are long stroke's are found in the enumerated weapon clause. I don't think you can mix and match and say you're ok- for instance a piston driven AR probably isn't ok just because it's not like an AR because it is similar to an AK.

 

[s11033]

Err am I missing something? The SU16 is a long stroke piston design. The only thing in common with an AR is the rotating bolt. By that standard, an M1 carbine should be banned too!

On a side note, I have a whole new appreciation for the struggles that homeless people face when arguing over park benches that don't exist.

Steve

 

[Drix]

Bah you answered before my edit, they are more different than I realized. Unfortunatly the AG specifically enumerates that a weapon is a copy if the mag well and one other item (in this case the extractor) are similar. AFAIK the SU takes ar mags, and the extractor is interchangeable between the two firearms.