Stopping Power and Suitable CCW Calibers

[Cross-X]

According to the Richie Callaghan of Callaghan's Firearm Sales in Marlboro, .380 is the caliber he sells the MOST of because people carry the .380 the most for CCW purposes.

So I guess most people don't want to shoot to stop so much as shoot to annoy, or shoot to die slowly!

I'd be very surprised if most people who CCW in MA carry the .380. Is it time for an NES survey? (grin)

 

[Len-2A Training]

Well, for those of us who've been CCW'g for a lot of years, the .380 was the only good choice in a concealable handgun years ago.

When I first got into CCW/shooting, it was 1976 and the concealable options were .22 and .25 predominantly, with a few .32s and .380s. I bought one of the first OMC (first brand name that was used for this gun) Backup .380 because you could fit it inside a pocket. NASTY, NASTY gun to shoot (and I usually fired 50-100 rds/week with it) with a ~15# trigger pull and 1-7/8" bbl.

Later I found a nice PPK/s and that replaced the OMC Backup, putting that gun on consignment with a dealer.

It wasn't until "plastic" became popular that we started to see some 9mm in pocket-concealable sizes, or guns that didn't weigh 2-3# hanging on your belt.

So today there are indeed better choices for concealability and stopping capability, but it hasn't always been this way.

Most gun owners really only own a few guns and rarely buy a new (or used) one, so they may still be carrying what was available 20-30 years ago when they first started in the gun world. The folks on NES are gun fanatics who buy and sell frequently, but we certainly are NOT main-stream gun owners!

 

[Len-2A Training]

Mod Hat On!

Damn you C-X, you sucked me in . . . then I noticed that this was in a WTS thread.

You violated the rules of editorializing in a Classifieds thread.

I responded and then realized "where we were". Thus I moved this to the appropriate forum and created a new thread with your post and my reply.

Let's NOT crap up the Classifieds and follow the rules.

Your points (especially the one on top of your head ) were well taken, thus I didn't trash what we wrote, just placed it where it belongs!

 

[DR]

The folks on NES are gun fanatics who buy and sell frequently, but we certainly are NOT main-stream gun owners!

Whew. I guess I'm not a fanatic. I buy frequently but only sell rarely.

 

[03roushs1]

My carry gun is .40, a glock 23. I am not that far from Mass. About 45 Min, so I hope I count.

 

[KMaurer]

Adhering to your moral principles doesn't make you a fanatic. I'd sell any of my guns if I had a good reason, but my religion forbids it.

As for "stopping power", absolutely every handgun ever made is at best marginal when it comes to stopping a goblin with one or two shots. Most of the stories attesting to the stopping power of one caliber or another are little more than fairy tales. Sure, bigger is better, but you can't CCW anything half-way big enough to guarantee a one-shot stop. Last month, Gabe Suarez told of a guy who was hit at close range in the upper right chest with a 12 gauge tactical slug that transversed his body and exited his back near the left shoulder. He continued the fight, and eventually escaped into some nearby woods. When they got sufficient backup, the police went in with dogs to look for the guy, or more accurately his body, and came up empty. Three days later they got a phone call from the guy's attorney who wanted to arrange for his client to turn himself in; it seems the wound was starting to fester, and he wanted to get some medical treatment.

Reality

• The .22 short that you've got with you is infinitely better than the .45 ACP you left at home;
• The .380 you can get into action quickly is better than the .50 AE you have to fumble to retrieve from concealment;
• A single hit with a .25 auto is more effective than a half dozen misses with a .357 magnum;
• 18 rounds of 9mm is more effective than 6 rounds of .44 mag.

I normally carry a .40S&W (a G27 at this particular moment), but will sometimes carry a 9mm, .45 or .357. Sometimes I'll carry a .380 as a backup or if that's all I can get away with under the circumstances.

Ken

 

[Patriot]

So I guess most people don't want to shoot to stop so much as shoot to annoy, or shoot to die slowly!

I'd be very surprised if most people who CCW in MA carry the .380. Is it time for an NES survey? (grin)

When you go surf fishing on a secluded beach inhabited by people you
know nothing about and you are fishing in shorts and a short-sleeved
shirt a PPK/s is a comforting presence in your pocket vs your model 29
sitting in your tackle box 50 yards up the beach. Different situations call for
different solutions (different strokes for different folks - Sly and the family
Stone). Don't trash the .380. It's presence can really be a difference maker
and frankly I don't see a lot of man killer if stepping up to a 9mm. As far as I
am concerned both of these rounds should fit within your annoy and die
slowly indictment. Of course, without either of these rounds available to you,
you would fit into the, you get annoyed and die slowly position, so take your
choice. Is it all or nothing? Not for me.

TBP

 

[matt]

According to my COP, the only suitable caliber for civilian self defence is [drum roll]:

















15% OC Spray...

 

[LORD of WAR]

Different situations call for
different solutions

i agree 100%...if im just running out of the house down the street i usually carry my keltec .32

when going out by myself somewhere a lil farther away i carry my glock 23 with 13 + 1 of .40

if im gonna be in area with a high volume of people and am afraid i may be printing i carry my glock 36 in .45


when im going to ccw which 95% of the time i do...i think of what i may run into based upon where im going and how much fire power is needed...theres always those days when i wanna feel like a cowboy and carry my glock 23 and 19 on each hip

 

[dwarven1]

So I guess most people don't want to shoot to stop so much as shoot to annoy, or shoot to die slowly!

So Darius, you'd only be annoyed if someone shot you with a .380?

Me, I don't even want to be shot with a BB! In fact, the only thing that I've ever volunteered to be shot with was when playing paintball.

 

[BigRich06]

I am usually carrying my Glock 27 (.40 9+1). If i had a smaller claliber like .380 or even .22 i would prob carry it fairly often becuase of the size and weight. Exp. in the summer months. When its 100 degrees out sometimes carrying my 1911 just feels uncomfortable. I figure u cant go wrong with the 27 for size weight and stopping power. If i owned a 36 i would carry that 95% of the time.

 

[03roushs1]

According to my COP, the only suitable caliber for civilian self defence is [drum roll]:



15% OC Spray...

I don't think I can even have that in New York.

 

[drgrant]

I'd say that .380 is pretty popular, but only because of cheap, relatively
reliable semis floating around for it.... also, the PPK/S is the only gun in
its size class availiable new in this state, for the most part.... so if you
want a small auto, thats what you're forced into buying, more or
less. (Although the PPK is HEAVY for what it is, its rather compact).

I had a Sig 232, and while it was a great gun, I dumped it.

The one problem with .380 is the damn recoil spike.

I own handguns in 9mm, .40 S+W, .45 ACP, 10mm Auto... and I find that
.380 recoil bite to be damned annoying in comparison to all of
those. That's just personal preference.

As to what I carry? Usually its 9mm.... but sometimes I carry .40, .45 ACP,
and even 10mm.

Having ammo that "works right" in whatever caliber you choose is the
most important. The problem with .380 is that most of the ammo doesnt
work right- you're almost better off carrying ball in .380, because the
cartridge doesnt have enough juice to get the bullet going at the point
where the JHP will "activate" in it's target.

I have to agree with Ken though. For the most part ANY gun is
better than NO gun.

The only caliber I would conciously avoid 110% of the time is .25 ACP.... that
has to be the worst cartridge ever invented. I think 22 LR is probably
better choice in comparison.

-Mike

 

[Adam_MA]

Just an FYI...

I sent an email to seecamp asking about weather or not they would be submitting their .380 version for MA approval...
Here is their reply.

Hi Adam,

Yes we are, but it'll be a while ~ probably next year.

I've filed your email in a folder where we will be able to notify you when that happens.

Regards,
Larry

 

[dwarven1]

(Although the PPK is HEAVY for what it is, its rather compact).

Can't argue with either of those two points, but I really don't notice the weight - it's heavy compared to, say, a polymer framed gun, but it's still pretty small compared to, say, a 1911, and therefore, lighter.

The one problem with .380 is the damn recoil spike.

Hey, come on now... even my 78 year old MOTHER liked shooting my PPK!

you're almost better off carrying ball in .380, because the cartridge doesnt have enough juice to get the bullet going at the point where the JHP will "activate" in it's target.

You're talking more about ballistics, here, right? As opposed to feed reliability? My PPK may be unusual, but it will feed Winchester Silvertips all day long without a hiccup.

The only caliber I would conciously avoid 110% of the time is .25 ACP.... that has to be the worst cartridge ever invented. I think 22 LR is probably better choice in comparison.

Yeah, .25's are the only guns I've ever seen that choke on FMJ ammo. I think you'd be better off throwing the gun at the goblin!

 

[Patriot]

You're talking more about ballistics, here, right? As opposed to feed reliability? My PPK may be unusual, but it will feed Winchester Silvertips all day long without a hiccup.

+1

Not unusual at all. I've thrown a lot of different stuff through mine and
it rarely, if ever, has a problem. FMJ and Silvertips, NEVER!

TBP

 

[highlander]

I've a pp in 32 auto and its feeds hollow points no problem hydra shock in fact'
was west german police trade in short money at the time still kicking myself for not buying two

 

[Adam_MA]

Yeah, .25's are the only guns I've ever seen that choke on FMJ ammo. I think you'd be better off throwing the gun at the goblin!

My Ravin has eaten everything I have ever put into it. I haven't had 1 FTF or FTE since I have owned it. I would never even think about carrying anything but FMJ in it though. Not enough power to even bother with hollow points. I did feed it a box of 50 one time just to see what would happen, and it ate them up without issue.

.25 is not notoriously known as a stopping cartridge, however a friend and co-worker is certain of it's effectiveness, as his brother was murdered with one.

Just for the hell of it, here's some porn.

 

[Jay G]

.22LR? .25 ACP? .32 ACP? .380 ACP?

Nah.

.357 Magnum.

If the 158 grain .357 Magnum round doesn't kill 'em, the muzzle flash will light their damn clothes on fire...

 

[drgrant]

My Ravin has eaten everything I have ever put into it. I haven't had 1 FTF or FTE since I have owned it. I would never even think about carrying anything but FMJ in it though. Not enough power to even bother with hollow points. I did feed it a box of 50 one time just to see what would happen, and it ate them up without issue.

.25 is not notoriously known as a stopping cartridge, however a friend and co-worker is certain of it's effectiveness, as his brother was murdered with one.

I'm sure a .25 ACP can kill somebody, of that I have no doubt... it probablly
has generated a huge number of corpses to show for it, too. But -incapactitation- wise,
I'll take anything else over it. If one has a choice, there usually
is better in a similar size factor...

Your raven must've been made on a monday, thats for
sure. Most of the guns floating around in that "class" don't function well,
if at all. (Class meaning the less than $200 pot metal street wonders).

The smallest gun I had was a Seecamp .32. While it worked well
enough, the fact that I had to DEATH GRIP the thing to get it to work
reliably was unnerving. (the only way I could get the gun to NOT jam during
firing was to grip the frame so hard that it would make my hand hurt.)
This was right around the time, however, where Larry was getting reports that the vaunted .
32 ACP silvertip did not work as well as it used to. I ended up dumping the gun about a month
or two before he issued that bulletin. Would be interesting to try it again with better ammo,
just to see if there was any difference.


-Mike

 

[Adam_MA]

The ammo may have been the culprit, however with any ultra light gun, the effects of "limp wristing" the shot, will result in a FTF every time!

 

[drgrant]

The ammo may have been the culprit, however with any ultra light gun, the effects of "limp wristing" the shot, will result in a FTF every time!

Well, thats what I figured it to be.... even though the Seecamp is a chunk of
steel for its size, its still pretty small, and the recoiling mass of the slide is
pretty light, so theres not a lot of "self inertia" there.

But I don't limp wrist any of my guns.... I grip them firmly. The little
seecamp seemed to like the GRIP OF DEATH though

 

[Arioch]

Whew. I guess I'm not a fanatic. I buy frequently but only sell rarely.

Sell? Guns can be SOLD, not just bought????