So the wife finally goes for her safety training class...

Emoto said:
Let's see, so far you've basically called me retarded and now you're attacking me based upon the NRA certifications I have? I tell you what, either stick with truth and facts about the law or go sit in your rocking chair. How's that, pinhead?
Click to expand...

Listen Einstein, you need better reading comprehension because I never called YOU retarded. Like I said I'd be happy to have you in any of my classes anytime. Hell I'd even let you try to teach it if you think you could handle it. Furthermore, if you think I'm going to stop doing what I'm doing because of what somebody on the internet tells me to do you can seriously go pound sand.

Seriously, go teach a few classes and then quiz your students on what they were actually able to retain and then get back to me on how I should be teaching my classes.
 
DickWanner said:
Listen Einstein, you need better reading comprehension because I never called YOU retarded. Like I said I'd be happy to have you in any of my classes anytime. Hell I'd even let you try to teach it if you think you could handle it. Furthermore, if you think I'm going to stop doing what I'm doing because of what somebody on the internet tells me to do you can seriously go pound sand.

Seriously, go teach a few classes and then quiz your students on what they were actually able to retain and then get back to me on how I should be teaching my classes.
Click to expand...

You'll note that I amended my post to remove "pinhead" while you were posting that, as I thought it went too far. I may have to reconsider. [laugh]

Speaking of reading comprehension, get back to that "if then" phrase. I said that IF you are not teaching fact about the law, THEN, you should not be allowed to teach. the flip side of that is if you ARE teaching FACT about the law, then I have no problem with what you're doing. Do you follow me yet?

So, I'll phrase it in a question, and you can answer.

For whatever you are able to cover in the time allotted in the law section, are you teaching the facts of the law, or are you making stuff up? It is a serious question.
 
I find the EOPSS FAQ's to be a great training aid when teaching MA law. It addresses the basics with regard to possession, transportation and storage of firearms, rifles and shotguns in the Commonwealth.

Instructors have the ethical responsibility to provide factual information and best practices to their students.
 
Circling_the_Drain.jpeg
 
DickWanner said:
but no one will ever get arrested for following the instructor
Click to expand...

Are you going to pay somebody's legal fees if they get arrested because they "listened to an instructor" rather than base they're actions on the law?

Emoto said:
No. I would rather that the instructors provided factual information.
Click to expand...

Precisely.

JGreen said:
I find the EOPSS FAQ's to be a great training aid when teaching MA law. It addresses the basics with regard to possession, transportation and storage of firearms, rifles and shotguns in the Commonwealth.

Instructors have the ethical responsibility to provide factual information and best practices to their students.
Click to expand...

They have an ethical and moral resposibility to teach based on facts not hearsay.
 
I teach students the law and I tell them my recommendations. I try to make a clear distinction between the two.

I teach them what is required for storage and what is required for transport in a car. I explain to them that while trigger locks are acceptable under the law for storage, that they aren't for transport. I explain to them that the back of an SUV is not a trunk. I explain the difference in transport requirements for the different types of guns. I talk about the pros and cons of the various devices available for storage, in terms of cost, security, and the legal requirements.

And after giving them the law, I tell them my recommendations and explain the rationale of my recommendations. I tell them that while it is legal to transport a non-large capacity long gun in the car uncased and on the seat, that it is unwise to do so. By that point they grasp that the law is very complex, and when I tell them that I would not count on your average police officer understanding the minutia of the law to that level, they completely get it. They understand that while they might not get convicted, that getting arrested would ruin their whole day. So I recommend that they put their firearms out of site while transporting in their vehicle, preferably in a locked case in the trunk, and if they don't have a trunk then they must be in a locked case (unless it is a handgun under their direct control).

I explain to them that the concept of "direct control" is not clear, and that there are disadvantages to carrying off body, so I recommend to them that when carrying a handgun in their car under their direct control that I recommend they carry it on their person.
 
I think it's the duty of the instructor to teach the truth of the law. It is up to the new student to realize REAL QUICK that he or she needs to learn more.

Dick is trying to outsmart his students so they don't get in trouble. I can see his side of it but even if it works a lot of the time, I would still prefer to learn the cold hard fact.

Now mind you all that I have been an avid hunter and shooter in Massachusetts all my life. I conscientiously follow the law and try to remain current. After 50 years there are at least a hundred pages of laws I don't have a clue about. Any NEW shooter who thinks they have learned enough in an 8 hour class to carry a gun around is just nuts.

Someone in this forum once made a good point. I forget who it was, but one of the more real shooters on this site said that he tries to spend at least half as much on training in a year as he does on bullets and guns. I try to spend at least one gun worth of training a year. (say $500 a year for classes, books, courses).

I think the individual shooter, even the newest newbie, needs to take on more responsibility in learning the REAL law, from REAL VETTED SOURCES.

It seems there is a very new climate of instructors running around as gun sales went up in the past years. Tons of new instructors and schools. I like learning from someone who can do it/ show me, not just draw on a chalk board and rattle off laws. Shooters need to recognize quickly if their instructor is any good.
 
Last edited:
Rob Boudrie said:
My guess is that some don't even understand the difference.
Click to expand...

I agree! Totally ignorant!

DickWanner said:
So you would rather an instructor blast a student new to guns (and possibly the concept of written law) with direct quotes from MGL in a manner that they would retain nothing and then commit crimes (and possibly felonies) than to give them 'advice' that while factually incorrect would have them retain all the information and be 100% lawful.
Click to expand...

NO ONE expects the students to retain most of what they are taught in a 3-4 or 8 hour class! That's only the tip of the iceberg wrt training to do anything.

When it comes to YOUR (any instructor) responsibility as a MSP Certified Instructor to go over the laws, you are supposed to GO OVER THE LAWS! Not your opinions.

It's fine to later go over your "recommendations" (and reasons why), but ONLY if you make it clear that they are recommendations to avoid conflict and NOT LAW!


Emoto said:
You present false choice and then call it retarded. [rolleyes]

If, in the section about law, you willfully teach your students anything but the truth, you should be barred from teaching.
Click to expand...

+10000

I have talked with instructors who have spewed garbage to their students and it disgusts me.

- One is a well-known FFL and probably been an NRA Instructor for 30 or so years. He told me (casual conversation before he gave a MA gun law seminar to a bunch of newbies) that you can transfer guns between "close relatives" (his term) WITHOUT doing any FA-10s!!

- Another Instructor was giving a MA gun laws seminar and used slides with totally wrong info wrt MA gun laws. Things like "illegal to carry a gun into a bank, restaurant which serves alcohol, etc." It was disgusting. I know that he's been an NRA Instructor for probably 10+ years and he knows his guns, he just doesn't have a clue about the law.

JGreen said:
I find the EOPSS FAQ's to be a great training aid when teaching MA law. It addresses the basics with regard to possession, transportation and storage of firearms, rifles and shotguns in the Commonwealth.

Instructors have the ethical responsibility to provide factual information and best practices to their students.
Click to expand...

I agree with Jon here, in spades! You need to keep the factual info (LAWS) separate from the "best practices" (recommendations) and make that crystal clear.
 
depicts said:
Dick is trying to outsmart his students so they don't get in trouble. I can see his side of it but even if it works a lot of the time, I would still prefer to learn the cold hard fact.
Click to expand...

No, never have I ever "lied" to a student. You can take that to the bank. There are certain sections or details of the law that I don't go into. You can take that as how you choose and I'll say that you'll have to sit through one of my classes to make an honest determination about me.

What I am trying to say here is; even if an instructor tells the students something wrong, I would prefer it be something that keeps their student out of jail, rather than it be something that will lead them astray of what is lawful.

Edit: I don't expect people here to fully understand the way I think, but several people here have seem to have faith in my abilities (crazy people apparently). So I'll stick to how and what I think, and do that until I realize or comprehend something different. What else can I do? Seriously, I've given enough open offers in this thread alone to attend a class that I teach, that to anyone else who thinks they can talk trash about me I can honestly say F-U and be done with it.
 
Last edited:
MrTwigg said:
aaaaaaaaaaaaaand another one "Gets it".

Does she know Massachusetts still does not have a "Katrina bill" prohibiting the confiscation of lawfully owned firearms in time of emergencies ?
Click to expand...

Yet if habeus corpus was suspended, the ACLU would be all over it like white on rice.
 
Wow, didn't this thread go off track?! I think I get what DickWanner is trying to say here. The MA law is way too convoluted to ever cover in exacting detail in a basic 8hr. course - especially since the law portion is a relatively small part of it. What he is doing is similar to what I experienced with my own instructor. Rather than try to dissect, and effectively disseminate the law verbatim, he is probably giving examples of real life pitfalls that his students are likely to face, and giving them his suggestions as to how to avoid them, even if it means going beyond what is legally necessary. To me this is a common sense approach, because I guarantee that there isn't anyone on this board that knows, and can recite the entire MGL guidelines verbatim, or that can even interpret them to their fullest intent, unless they specialize in that area as a practicing attorney. An instructors job, at least an effective one, is not one that just reads off the laws as they are written. An effective instructor will do his best to help newbies to fully grasp the intent of the law to keep them from getting into trouble. If that means going a little above, and beyond the letter of the law, then what's the harm? The point is that there are so many gray areas in the law, that sometimes it is helpful to just have someone tell you how to avoid an incident, even if part of what he is saying is opinion based. After the class is over, it is ultimately the students responsibility to delve into the "facts" of the written law to satisfy individual situations as they may arise. If this was not the case, then the "basic pistol course" would need to be at least a full semester college course, instead of just an 8hr. "overview" as it stands now.
 
Terminator03 said:
If this was not the case, then the "basic pistol course" would need to be at least a full semester college course, instead of just an 8hr. "overview" as it stands now.
Click to expand...

Don't give them any ideas [rofl]

After the class is over, it is ultimately the students responsibility to delve into the "facts" of the written law to satisfy individual situations as they may arise.
Click to expand...

Each student also receives a e-mail prior to class containing a packet they are supposed to print out and bring with them. This packet contains every detail of the law that I am requires to teach. Guess how many students bring them in? The smart ones will print and read the packet and be intelligent enough to learn more about MA gun laws than the basic overview. The dumb ones will only remember what they were told in the class, and usually they get it wrong at that.

They way I approach instructing is, if my students were to leave the class knowing nothing but a few simple things, what should those things be. To me they are the three basic safety rules, the concept of unloading a firearm and enough experience with the basic types to be able to unload almost any firearm they come across, the very basics of fundamentals (mostly trigger squeeze and sight alignment), and how to stay out of jail. Who cares if they can't recite the NRA death statistics for 1988 [thinking]
 
Last edited:
I'd been talking to my wife about this for awhile and she took a women's only LTC class with First Defense this past weekend and had an absolute blast (figuratively and literally). She will be applyting with the local PD this week.
 
DickWanner said:
Don't give them any ideas [rofl]



Each student also receives a e-mail prior to class containing a packet they are supposed to print out and bring with them. This packet contains every detail of the law that I am requires to teach. Guess how many students bring them in? The smart ones will print and read the packet and be intelligent enough to learn more about MA gun laws than the basic overview. The dumb ones will only remember what they were told in the class, and usually they get it wrong at that.

They way I approach instructing is, if my students were to leave the class knowing nothing but a few simple things, what should those things be. To me they are the three basic safety rules, the concept of unloading a firearm and enough experience with the basic types to be able to unload almost any firearm they come across, the very basics of fundamentals (mostly trigger squeeze and sight alignment), and how to stay out of jail. Who cares if they can't recite the NRA death statistics for 1988 [thinking]
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone can reasonably expect you or any other instructor to teach everything there is to know about MA law in the extremely limited time you have. All you can do is hit a few of the main points of the law.

Now, stick with me here as I am NOT accusing YOU of anything, but where I have an issue is if an instructor tells the students that something IS the law, when it really IS NOT.

Clearer this time?
 
There are a few basic concepts many instructors don't seem to grasp:

1). Having an instructor certificate does not make you an expert in guns or the law. Knowledge does. The bar to become a "certified instructor" at both the state and NRA level is fairly low. Try going from avid scuba diver or parachutist to "certified instructor" recognized by NAUI/PADA/YMCA or USPA etc. in one weekend :).

2). A credential does not add validity to your opinion.

3). You cannot "figure out" MA law by filling in the blanks with "what seems to make sense". It doesn't work that way.

4). It is possible a student will ask a question you cannot answer - which gives you an opportunity to research it and learn the answer, not present your best guess as if you know the answer.

5). Opinions are just that - opinions. Presenting your personal opinion as "fact" because you are so certain your viewpoint is correct represents an irresponsible degree of arrogance - no matter how confident you are in your opinion.
 

Similar threads

Finally decided to apply for my FFL
Replies
13
Views
563
dcmdon
dcmdon
LTC class for first timer, before July?
Replies
14
Views
279
paul73
paul73
The 10 Commandments of Gun Safety
Replies
2
Views
350
deerdad
deerdad
Finally finished...well sort of
Replies
14
Views
519
Mountain
Mountain
State suicide training
2
Replies
36
Views
780
M1911
M1911
Back
Top Bottom