Similar to the kids robbing the store with a BB gun, but.....

[Pilgrim]

From another website:

To Shoot or Warn?

"A quick question on which I have thought often in the past week: say you are frequenting your local convenience store/location of choice, say with your family, and someone pulls a gun. Being a good responsible citizen, and honoring your God-given role to protect and care for the welfare of your family, you have a concealed carry permit. The situation escalates to the point where you are concerned for your safety and those you love, so you quietly drawn unnoticed, from concealment, and unnoticed by the BG. Now, question:

Do you a) say something along the lines of "drop it or I'm gonna splatter your graymatter on the wall, you %$*@#$; or b) drop him with a shot from behind with no warning? I know there are a variety of issues in play, such as legalities, self-preservation, general ethics, etc. Any and all may be discussed, though I would prefer we didn't ONLY stick on the "you're gonna get sued" response."

What would you do?

 

[matt1956]

personally if I can justify drawing my weapon... then I truely beleive that someone is going to die...

I say drop him.

 

[C-pher]

Yea, if I drew my firearm, then I'm planning on shooting. If I don't plan to shoot, I don't draw.

But that's the way that I look at it.

 

[Hamar]

I would like to think I would not shoot the perp in the back. I would only fire, if me or my family was absolutely in grave danger and threatened directly. I think I would unholster when I had a chance and keep my weapon hidden from view until such time that it needed to be used. If the perp commits his/her crime and flees, I'll reholster and help the clerk in anyway I could.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Check out the October Outdoor Message from GOAL. They address this in an article.

 

[stoneypete]

Yea, if I drew my firearm, then I'm planning on shooting. If I don't plan to shoot, I don't draw.

+1

 

[KMaurer]

Yes, I'd only draw if I planned to shoot. OTOH, having drawn my gun doesn't guarantee that I will for the simple reason that circumstances can change just that quickly. For example, say that the perp sees that I'm responding with lethal force and drops his gun. Carrying through with my original intent at this point would be murder, plain and simple. As for verbal warnings, I'd seriously consider giving one if (1) I had hard cover for myself, and (2) I judged that doing so wouldn't increase the risk appreciably to some innocent person. Without those conditions, I've got absolutely no compunctions about shooting someone in the back with no warning of any kind.

And as I sometimes tell students (outside class) when a shoot is really justified, the legal circumstances won't enter your decision in the slightest. If you've got time to worry about the law, you've almost certainly got time to come up with a better solution.

Ken

 

[MarkM]

And as I sometimes tell students (outside class) when a shoot is really justified, the legal circumstances won't enter your decision in the slightest. If you've got time to worry about the law, you've almost certainly got time to come up with a better solution.

Ken

personally if I can justify drawing my weapon... then I truely beleive that someone is going to die...

I say drop him.

Yea, if I drew my firearm, then I'm planning on shooting. If I don't plan to shoot, I don't draw.

But that's the way that I look at it.

+1 to all of the above from me.

 

[codenamepaul]

I'd give a warning from behind cover. If he so much as blinks, I'd drop him.

 

[vellnueve]

I would give a verbal warning as well, and if he so much as twitched, I would put him down.

I think it's important not to worry about the legal ramifications even when you're not in a situation like that, otherwise, you might hesitate when it becomes necessary, and that could result in you, or someone else, getting killed.

 

[Martlet]

I would like to think I would not shoot the perp in the back. I would only fire, if me or my family was absolutely in grave danger and threatened directly. I think I would unholster when I had a chance and keep my weapon hidden from view until such time that it needed to be used. If the perp commits his/her crime and flees, I'll reholster and help the clerk in anyway I could.

+1

I would give a verbal warning as well, and if he so much as twitched, I would put him down.

Unfortunately, all it takes is a twitch to pull the trigger and take the clerk's head off. Personally, (while agreeing that every situation is unique and calls for a different reaction) I feel giving a verbal warning only escalates the situation. I would never draw my weapon unless I felt sure that someone was about to die or get seriously hurt.

 

[vellnueve]

That is very true... Fortunately or unfortunately this equation does not enter into my situation due to my neutered license.

 

[Cross-X]

Strangers? You are asking if I'd step in and use lethal force to defend strangers?

And I guess you're also asking if I'd risk the lawsuit that is surely coming my way from the perp, or his surviving family?

And you, of course, are asking this taking into account that I am legally responsible for every shot I fire, including the ones that miss, or that go through the perp and hit someone standing behind him?

Is this what you're asking me: if I'd willingly step into when I could just stay out of sight, dial 911, and let my cell phone and me be excellent witnesses for the cops? If that is indeed what you're asking, the choice is easy: I'd stay out of sight with my loaded, drawn gun at the ready.

Darius Arbabi

 

[MarkM]

Darius: my response is based on the following:

The situation escalates to the point where you are concerned for your safety and those you love

If I had a safe way out where I could get my family out and dial 911 without being observed I would take it but the quote above seems to preclude that.

 

[Jaxon]

Van Leek: "Damn, boy! You shot him in the back."
Billy Ray Smith: "Well, his back was to me!"*

Works for me. Drop him.


RJ
*El Diablo (1990)

 

[drgrant]

IMO, it depends.


Frankly, if use of the gun is justified, (and thats a big IF)
he's not getting a warning. I'm not going to throw away an entire
OODA loop worth of advantage for the sake of giving the dirtbag an extra
chance. (the old video of the guy in the pawn shop attacking the
robber, by sneaking the gun out and coming up around his female
co-worker, and getting a few shots off at the perp (all of which
connected with the target, BTW) is a prime example of exploiting
someone's OODA loop... the perp never fired a shot because
the response to his robbery attempt was totally unexpected. )

That being said, the word "justified" is the kicker. If this guy is the
standard in and out robber, it's going to be hard to justify shooting him, at
least in this flippin state. The problem in MA is you have to articulate that
the robber presented an imminent threat to you, and then, as cross-x says,
youll have to deal with the dirtbag civil suit trick every time. As much as
I'd like to avoid lawsuits, I still consider that function wholly secondary to
keeping yourself alive or free of debilitating injury. We all have to
balance the "imminent risk" against suits and the like... but its best to
decide ahead of time, mentally speaking, what "shoot / no shoot" means
to you as a concept. I think that concept ends up being a little bit
different for every person.

-Mike

 

[highlander]

First I'd dial 911 and keep the PD apprised of the situation after that keep an eye on things and if things go south shoot. With any luck all of the situation will be on audio being taped by the police via the cell phone and if you're really lucky the store has it's own internal security cameras to witness said event