Series 80 1911 to Series 70

[FJM25]

Question: I live in Massachusetts and I am limited to the type of 1911 pistol I can pruchase - if I buy an Auto Ordnance 1911A1 and pull out the series 80 parts and replace the frame pieces with spacer (shim) that you can purchase at Browells... making it a series 70 pistol - how many state and federal firearm laws will I be breaking?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Assuming you have a MA LTC, NONE!

Do some searching and reading here to educate yourself on the MGLs on handguns, it will pay off.

 

[Nickle]

I don't know the state laws, but if it isn't Full-Auto after, you will violate exactly ZERO Federal laws.

 

[mark056]

Truthfully, on a duty or service style 1911A1 I can't really tell the difference between a Series 70 and a Series 80. The appeal of the Series 80 is that if it is accidently dropped it is less likely to create an accidental discharge, of course, I also like arched main spring housings and don't see the need for full length guide rods, but then again I'm no IPSC super shooter.

If I had a Series 70 (which I had once and it was stolen out in California, or an Early Series 80 which I currently own) I would remove the so-called accurizer bushing (the part that made it a Series 70 to differentiate from previous commerical Colt models). There have been enough cases on record where the fingers on this type of bushing have broken thus causing a major malfunction. Colt eventually went back to the solid bushing and I don't know of any manufacturer who doesn't use a solid bushing today.

Unless you are doing extremely competitve shooting, I can't see the need to convert to a Series 70 configuration with regard to the firing pin.

Mark

 

[M1911]

Truthfully, on a duty or service style 1911A1 I can't really tell the difference between a Series 70 and a Series 80.

In my rather small sample size, I've found a better trigger feel on the Series 70, even after trigger jobs by people I believe to be competent gunsmiths. The Series 80 action does given significantly better protection against a discharge if the gun is dropped.

how many state and federal firearm laws will I be breaking?

IANAL. But to the best of my knowledge, none. You won't be breaking state or federal laws. There are some people who will tell you that doing so is unwise and could increase liability in the event of an ND.

 

[FJM25]

To Len - Currently have a Class A - ALP license and was just asking a question to the forum. I just found the web site and think the members are some of the most knowledgeable people around when it comes to firearms - do you always treat 'new' people to the site with such distain and that holier than thou attitude?

To the forum members: Just my opinion… The Series 80 1911 was Colt’s answer to a question asked by lawyers… What if…. It has added 4 moving parts to the gun that can (but do not that often) interfere with the operation of the slide and/or the firing pin. These are small parts that can easily be bent – especially the upper lever that comes up through the slide. It is also a huge pain in the ass to reassemble an 80 series vs. a 70 series – the extra parts drive me crazy during reassembly after replacing a trigger.

 

[Len-2A Training]

To Len - Currently have a Class A - ALP license and was just asking a question to the forum. I just found the web site and think the members are some of the most knowledgeable people around when it comes to firearms - do you always treat 'new' people to the site with such distain and that holier than thou attitude?

Welcome to the forum. I think you may be over-reacting to my reply.

Assuming you have a MA LTC, NONE!

Do some searching and reading here to educate yourself on the MGLs on handguns, it will pay off.

I answered your question that you would not break any MGLs if you had a LTC (something you didn't mention in your original post). I used "all caps" for None to make that crystal clear . . . not to put you down or be sarcastic.

I suggested doing a search and some reading so that you could confidently assure yourself and educate yourself on MGLs, as they are very convoluted and many of them have been posted on here numerous times. I always try to post a cite to the law, that way you aren't taken the word of some unknown person on the Internet, but actually have a chunk of MGL to hang your legal hat on.

Even being new here, the use of the Search link can get you a wealth of info.

In no way was I trying to be "holier than thou" or disparaging and I'm sorry that you took it that way. Also with an average of 3-400 posts here/day, I don't have time any more to research and post chunks of MGL on a continual basis, especially when I've done it many times in the past . . . each time I do this I have to find the link on the MA Gov website and cut 'n paste, so it doesn't become trivial.

 

[mark056]

Some years ago, according to Mas Ayoob, Colt did some drop tests and concluded that the possibility of accidental discharge was possible with the inertia firing pin set-up of the Commerical and military Colts of the day. Even before that, in the 1930's the Swartz Safety was developed and the firing pin lock worked off the grip safety much in the same manner (but not identically, I'm told) that the S&W 1911's currently operate. Colt actually equipped some of their commercial models with this firing pin safety, but then WWII intervened and they went back to the tried and true because of wartime requirements.

It is significant to note that almost all 1911 makers today use some kind of firing pin safety, or if using the inertia firing pin like Springfield (I believe) have gone to great pains to ensure that it would take a considerable amount of force to cause an AD.

Now people like Jeff Cooper, and Chuck Taylor and maybe Clint Smith might hold the idea of a firing pin safety with disdain. I know that Chuck Taylor has expressed this in print and I believe too Lt Col Cooper. I'm not going to dispute this, I just know that I am an average shooter and I like to work with a certain margin of safety realizing that all firearms have a degree of dangerousness attached to them.

If I were an IPSC shooter and I wanted a Race Gun to compete, you can bet that it would have a traditional (I disdain the term Series 70, as the thing that made a Series 70 a Series 70 was the accurizer bushing, and it had nothing to do with the firing pin) Pre-Series 80 configuration. If I were using it as a carry-gun for general purpose, then I would use a Series 80, why not have that extra margin of safety ?

An individual can pretty much customize a 1911 just about anyway they want to. We are dealing with a very mature technology here.

I cannot help but wonder, given your remark about it the firing pin safety being a response to legal issues, then why did Colt orginally address the issue in the 1930's ?

Now maybe you are a gifted shooter who can fire one inch groups at 25 yards, if so you will probably benefit from a pre-Series 80 configuration. If you are an average shooter like me, who is happy with four or five inches on a good day with the wind not blowing :? , then I really don't think that it is going to make too much of a difference. I can't help but wonder if your idea isn't ideologically motiviated more than by real-world experience.

Welcome to the Forum and thank you very much for posting and presenting your views. There is a lot of stuff on firearms law here if you do a search, also go to the GOAL site, packing.org and the MGL's themselves online.

Best wishes and good shooting,

Mark

 

[M1911]

If I were an IPSC shooter and I wanted a Race Gun to compete, you can bet that it would have a traditional (I disdain the term Series 70, as the thing that made a Series 70 a Series 70 was the accurizer bushing, and it had nothing to do with the firing pin) Pre-Series 80 configuration. If I were using it as a carry-gun for general purpose, then I would use a Series 80, why not have that extra margin of safety ?

Since most people refer to 1911s without a firing pin safety as series 70, and thus understand what we're talking about, I don't "disdain the term" and I'll continue to use it.

I've got several series 70 and series 80 guns. I'm comfortable carrying either. If you're not comfortable carrying a series 70 gun, then there's several alternatives. I find that the triggers on series 70 guns are just better. YMMV.

An individual can pretty much customize a 1911 just about anyway they want to. We are dealing with a very mature technology here.

The series 80 lockwork is certainly mature. I've heard some sporadic complaints about failures to fire in Kimber II and SW1911. The concept of the Swartz-style safety has been around a long time, but the Kimber II and S&W implementations have a much more limited track record than the series 80 lockwork.

I cannot help but wonder, given your remark about it the firing pin safety being a response to legal issues, then why did Colt orginally address the issue in the 1930's ?

I'm not sure who you are responding to here, but I'll jump in anyways. You could turn that around and say that if Colt decided to continue making 1911s without firing pin safeties about the next 50 years, that perhaps they decided the issue was not that important.

Fact is, Kimber only went to the Series II lockwork after CA passed their drop-testing law.

Now maybe you are a gifted shooter who can fire one inch groups at 25 yards, if so you will probably benefit from a pre-Series 80 configuration. If you are an average shooter like me, who is happy with four or five inches on a good day with the wind not blowing Confused , then I really don't think that it is going to make too much of a difference. I can't help but wonder if your idea isn't ideologically motiviated more than by real-world experience.

I think this is called a strawman argument. You assert that only people with a unlikely level of skill would benefit from the series 70 trigger, and since most don't have that skill it is therefore not a benefit.

I don't consider myself a gifted shooter. I'm better than many, but regularly get humbled at IDPA matches. That said, I find I can shoot faster and more accurately with my series 70 guns than my series 80 guns. So while I don't have your asserted level of skill, I still find a practical benefit of the series 70 trigger. YMMV.

The advantage of the Swartz-style safety is that, unlike the series 80 lockwork, it doesn't affect the feel of the trigger. Which is precisely why Kimber and S&W decided to use the Swartz-style safety rather than the series 80 firing pin safety..

It is significant to note that almost all 1911 makers today use some kind of firing pin safety, or if using the inertia firing pin like Springfield (I believe) have gone to great pains to ensure that it would take a considerable amount of force to cause an AD.

I can't say that I agree with your assertion. Some do and some don't. ParaOrd, S&W, Kimber, and Sig use a firing pin safety.

But Kimber only went to the Series II lockwork (Swartz-style) after CA passed their drop-test law. And colt still sells Series 70 guns as well. http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/Series70.asp

Springfield's "great pains" are what? An extra power firing pin retaining spring? Available from Wolff for just a few bucks. Rock River Arms, Wilson Combat, AutoOrdnance, SVI, STI, Dan Wesson (aka CZ-USA), etc., all series 70.

Does a firing pin safety increase safety? Sure. Does that mean a series 70 is unsafe? I'd argue no. Just don't drop it

The one argument that I haven't seen discussed here much is whether removing or disabling the firing pin safety would increase one's liability. I suspect that it might and that, in fact, it might increase your liability more than just carring a gun that was manufactured as a series 70. Perhaps one of our attorney's on the board could expound on this.

 

[mark056]

1911:

A very old friend of mine once alluded to the fact that opinons are a lot like people's rectums. Everybody's got 'em and they all smell. I have mine and you have yours. Vive la differance !

I will continue to look upon the term Series 70 with disdain regardless of whether it is popular parlance or not. Just because it is commonly used term, does not make it any more correct.

Perhaps I am using strawman argument here, however, if so, I am in good company. However, I will stand by my assertion that for most shooters any tangible difference isn't really that discernable. If I were an amatuer pianist of middling ability (something I do know something about) I could play on a $90K Steinway Concert Grand and not really derive any benefit from it, other than I had a very nice piano, my interests could be served just as well by a $3K Yamaha Studio Console model. I wouldn't sound any better, just maybe pride of ownership.

As much as I admire certain qualities in Messrs Cooper and Taylor, they also foster a certain type of elitist attitudes especially with regard to the virtues of the 1911. Those attitudes in individuals who don't match up to the personal qualities of the above named gentlemen have helped create a cult of the 1911 and what I call the 1911 elitist snob, you know the type that wears cargo pants ALL of the time with a combat folding knife (always the latest model touted in the most recent issue of Soldier of Fortune Magazine) the Gunsite ball cap and a shooter/photographer vest with a gazillion pockets . One can only have a full length guide rod, or one can only have a Series 70 style firing pin, or one can only use Chip McCormack magazines, or one must have an extended slide stop. After awhile it smacks of arrogance and elitism. I remember back in the 1970's you were nothing if your 1911 didn't have S&W adjustable revolver sights installed and your grip safety pinned. I recall that Lt Col Cooper saying that Glocks, for instance, were a handgun for the masses, for amatuers, or that DA autos were an solution to an non-existant problem.

With regard to your other obervation regarding the original question, Len answered it. It is merely yet another variation on threads that have been asked in the past. I would respectfully suggest that anyone who still has lingering doubt or further questions, to engage in research themselves and make a contribution that would enhance the general knowledge base of this august forum.

With all best wishes,

Mark

 

[RKG]

1. If this is a poll, I've never found a Series 80 trigger that could compare with a "Series 70" trigger.

2. Outside of the laboratory, I believe that the notion of a Gov't Model discharging while in Condition 1 because it was dropped, landed on the muzzle, and the pin kept traveling while the rest of the gun stopped is mainly theory. I believe I once read that were wasn't a single instance of this happening (outside of a laboratory). If that is true, it is pretty persuasive, given the number of Gov't Models out there.

 

[mark056]

RKG you may be correct in the real world. I think Chuck Taylor alluded to that. I used to carry my S&W Model 39 (one of the earliest examples of a solution to a non-existant problem ) with the safety/de-coking lever in the up or fire position relying on an inertia firing pin so I wouldn't have to worry about releasing a safety. I also carried my Series 70 in Condition 1. Then too, I used to drive without a seatbelt.

While it is true that there have been milliions of 1911's carried, the military (which overall has had the largest number of 1911 users) always specified Condition 3 as the mode of carry. This is not to say that some didn't carry in Condition 1 or 2, but most did carry in Condition 3. Not much of a chance of an AD when there is no round in the chamber.

Mark

 

[M1911]

As much as I admire certain qualities in Messrs Cooper and Taylor, they also foster a certain type of elitist attitudes especially with regard to the virtues of the 1911. Those attitudes in individuals who don't match up to the personal qualities of the above named gentlemen...

My opinions of the Series 70 vs. Series 80 has nothing to do with whatever Cooper, Taylor, Ayoob, or whomever wrote or didn't write. I've never claimed that my skills with a gun or a pen or a keyboard compare with those three. I've met Ayoob and seen him shoot. Like any person, he has his good qualities and some not so good.

I haven't met the other two. In fact, if you scroll back up, you'll see that I specifically said I'm no gifted shooter. I do carry a folding knife and find that I use it quite often.

I don't wear a Gunsite ball cap. I've never been there. I do have a S&W Academy cap, but I only wear that around the yard. I generally wear a hat of some kind to keep the sun out of my eyes and off my scalp (which is rapidly becoming more exposed).

My Kimbers came with fullsize guide rods and while I'd just as soon have a regular plug, I haven't had a significant problem with either. I've got some Chip McCormick mags, but I usually use Wilson 7 rounders. I've found the Wilson 8 rounders weren't as reliable for me in my guns. YMMV. I don't have an extended slide stop. Some of my 1911s have ambi safeties and some don't. Either works for me.

I do sometimes wear a vest in warmer weather when I can't wear a coat. I also find the pockets useful.

I like 1911s. But I've carried Kahrs, Glocks, S&W revolvers as well. I've got Sigs and HKs in the safe too. I've felt adequately armed with any of them.

So do me a favor and criticize me for opinions that I actually have, rather than for opinions you think I might have.

Frankly, I don't read gunrags -- most of them are worse than car rags. My opinions are based on my direct experiences with my very own Series 70 and Series 80 1911s in my very own greasy little fingers. I've got three Kimber Series I (one full size and two compacts), one Springfield Armory, one ParaOrdnance, and one Delta Elite. I also had another Kimber Royal Carry and a Colt Commander that passed through my collection. I've put a fair number of rounds through them.

I know nothing about playing a piano. I do a little about how I shoot 1911s. You can make all the analogies that you care to make. What I know, from direct experience, is that I shoot Series 70 1911s better than I shoot Series 80.

I've got nothing against the Swartz style safety if it works properly -- it doesn't affect the trigger and it adds a bit of safety. But I'm not a fan of the Series 80 firing pin block.

I'm sure you'll stick to with your assertions and analogies. I prefer to stick with my direct experience. For me, it makes a difference.

 

[mark056]

1911,

It is most unfortunate indeed that you chose to take my general remarks as some kind of ad hominym attack on your person. I don't think I mentioned you at all in the context of my observations of at least some of the pistoleros who fancy themselves combat masters and the 1911A1 as the ne plus ultra of fighting handguns. I am quite sure that we all have encountered such persons at one time or another.

'tis a pity you took it that way.

I will say this as a general statement that if Cooper and Weaver (who I guess mainly used an S&W 38 Spl) didn't help host the Leatherslap contests at Big Bear Lake in California, back in the '50's, the 1911 might have died a quiet death, at least in the civilian market.

I agree that Ayoob can be very charming and also very profane a tad egocentric, but he is interesting and I do appreciate all observations and research.

It is indeed fortunate that you value experiential learning over all other types as experience is the best teacher. I quite agree, and I genuinely am sorry though, that you never had the opportunity to learn about the piano, I say this not to be patronizing or coy, but I think people who have not had that experience have missed something. On the other hand, one of my friends tells me the same thing because I don't skydive.

For the record, the last time I had to rely on a 1911A1 was in 1991-92 in the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea. It was a pure GI Remington Rand all the way, and I felt better armed with it than some of my colleagues who were issued Berettas. To call this relic from 1944 a Series 70 or Series 70 style would have been a stretch. I remember when the Series 70's came out.

In any event, I hope that you continue to enjoy the genius of John Moses Browning in whatever format you choose.

With all best wishes,

Mark

 

[RKG]

The Army specifies Condition 3 for most carry of the Gov't Model because the military use of a sidearm goes not call for being in a situation where the gun may have to be called from a holster in a hurry. In combat, if you're down to your .45, you have it Condition 1 and in your hand.

It is telling that, for situations where military folks might have to face a need for fast draw and fire (e.g., CID), the weapon carried was a S&W M10.

 

[mark056]

RKG,

That is an interesting idea, one that I have heard before, but in fact in WWII great emphasis was placed on racking the slide while drawing the weapon. The Military Police was taught this technique until the adoption of the M9 in the middle 80's. (when females were allowed to join the MP Corps in the early 80's they were issued Model 10's because it was felt that the .45 could not be easily controlled, this even though the "new technique of pistolcraft" was being taught) Col Rex Applegate of special operations in WWII taught a method whereby the pistol was in Condition Zero, relying solely on the grip safety, but only few were ever allowed that.

The Army has always been a bit strange about handguns. I cannot comment on the CID other than the fact the Model 10 and Detective Special were used a various times, more for the weight and concealability factor (personally I always thought the 1911 concealed well). I know also the the Ruger Security Six was also used at least in the Ft. Lewis, Washington area. Anyway, getting back to that eccentricity, revolver doctrine called for in the MP Corps required that the revolver hammer rest on an empty chamber thus making a five shooter out of a six shooter. I don't know if the CID required the same or not.

If one really thinks about it, the idea of Condition 3 really doesn't make too much sense, because the whole notion of issuing a handgun in the military is for personnel who are more than likely not going to be engaged in combat (some exceptions like tunnel rats in Viet Nam or the old horse cavalry) and who will use the handgun as a defensive weapon which suggests or implies a reactive mode for which Condition 1 is the only logical choice. Officers, senior NCOs, crew served weapons personnel, aviators etc. are most likely to be issued pistols. MP's in combat zones are usually issued M16s or now M4s in addition to any sidearms. The truth of the matter is that "cocked and locked" scared the bejesus out of the decision makers, just like it does most police administrators. Although I could never figure out how a 1911 in Condition 1 was somehow less safe than a Glock.

Well, this really doesn't have a lot to do with gun laws, but it has been interesting. Remembering Adm Hopper, I will only say to the mods that I ask forgiveness for going off topic to the degree that it has gone. If anyone would like to continue with this very interesting topic (in my opinion) please PM me.

Mark

 

[Len-2A Training]

Mod Hat On!

I see so much good info here, that I do NOT want to squelch the current discussion. And the posted info is more closely related to the title of this thread (even thou we did run off at a tangent) than the original question.

Thus, I am going to move this thread to the Firearms, etc. Forum with a pointer from the original Gun Laws Forum.

The OP's question was answered, but please carry on in the discussions of carry methods, merits of one style of 1911 vs. the other, etc.

 

[Greg Derr]

FJM25- The fault with the Colt Ser 80 is in the mating of the two pieces they use for the FP block. Smith uses one piece-quite well I must say. I would like to see an Auto Ord FP block. For the record a Ser 80 can be made as smooth as a Ser 70. I have worked both sides of the fence, removing the parts, and also smoothing the parts. I prefer to smooth the parts since removal leaves a very large void under the slide and into the FP tunnel which can hold grime. Like I said smoothing out a Ser 80 Colt is no big deal. Most gunsmiths will not remove the Ser 80 block for liability reasons. Greg Derr