Selling with an expired LTC permit

[BillO]

Can someone with an expired permit sell a handgun on a personal transfer FA-10 or does it have to be an FFL? A coworker has a couple of guns thats been in his safe for years with a long since expired LTC.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Sorry to say if the LTC isn't valid, you can't do the transaction without an FFL!

That info came direct from Ron Glidden . . . it's one of hte questions that I asked him a while ago.

 

[Cross-X]

With respect, I must disagree with LenS. According to Cosmo, a staffer with the Criminal History Systems Board legal department, whom I spoke with today, doing the above transfer via an FA-10 is an acceptable practice.

What I recommend that you do is put the seller's name and expired LTC number on the FA-10, complete the rest of the info, and send in the forms within seven days of the transfer and you should be all set.

 

[BillO]

conflicting opinions. Read through the Mass Gun Laws, but I can't seem to find anything on the subject.

 

[JonJ]

I'd say call and speak with someone at CHSB but some here will tell you that they'll give you bad info.

 

[Cross-X]

Look, I can back up what I say with personal experience. Over the years I have purchased firearms from folks with expired LTCs, sent in the FA-10, and then never heard a peep from the CHSB or anyone else.

 

[securityboy]

Look, I can back up what I say with personal experience. Over the years I have purchased firearms from folks with expired LTCs, sent in the FA-10, and then never heard a peep from the CHSB or anyone else.

I agree 100%...CHSB could care less who you got it from, they just want to know who has it now...

 

[Len-2A Training]

Darius,

I HOPE that you and Cosmo are correct. But recognize that Cosmo's profession is as an accountant (according to Ron) which is a far cry from attorney and knowing the laws.

I'll check again with Ron, when I get some time.

 

[Cross-X]

Darius,

I HOPE that you and Cosmo are correct. But recognize that Cosmo's profession is as an accountant (according to Ron) which is a far cry from attorney and knowing the laws.

I'll check again with Ron, when I get some time.

All I can do is tell folks on NES what's legal, and, more importantly, what works.

By the way, unless he has been incredibly busy since I last checked, Ron Glidden doesn't have a law degree, nor is he admitted to the bar in Massachusetts. His only salient credential is that he is a very fine police chief in Lee, Massachusetts, and does the firearms law update for the Mass. Chiefs of Police Association.

One's profession or occupation, whether police chief, lawyer or accountant, has no bearing on the accuracy of the information provided. Either the information is right or it is wrong. It doesn't matter who says it.

 

[BillO]

I reread Ma Laws 129c. I'm caught up in the phrase "who has been issued"

 

[Pilgrim]

If you don't have an LTC and you have handguns, aren't you eligible for jail?

 

[Cross-X]

If you don't have an LTC and you have handguns, aren't you eligible for jail?

You sure are.

That's why lots of NESers are willing to climb in over the transom and offer to cart away those worthless guns.

This isn't shameless commerce, just altruism. (weak smile)

 

[BillO]

Pilgrim, I'm sure he's aware of it. The point is, if someone decides not to renew their license due to lost interest, forgetting to renew or whatever reason, are they permitted to sell their guns via private transaction? I wonder how many people might be out there in a similar predicament. No idea what the statistics are, but I personally wonder how many people DON'T renew, but HAVE purchased guns while their license was in force. I'll bet there are quite a few guns sitting in the safes of these bad, bad "lawbreakers".

 

[Chris]

Well, I still hear from people who didn't realize that their old FID issued for "Lifetime" was declared void by the legislature. (yes, I realize that there are a lot of opinions on this, but lets NOT get into that here)

I'd say that there are very likely a Significant number of firearms in this state that do not have the proper paperwork for their posession. Now, if you live in City 'X' that might get you a free ride in a police car. Do the same thing in Town 'Y' and the chief might say "Charlie, you numbskull, meet me in my office tomorrow morning and we'll get you legal."

 

[Len-2A Training]

Ron's on vacation until 7/9 and I'd rather not bother him via cell phone, so I'll Email him and post a response when I hear back from him.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Darius,

Ron's "magic" is that his answers are NOT "HIS" ANSWERS, but he spend many hours talking with the CHSB & EOPS attorneys who write CMRs and enforce the laws to get those answers. He even talks with the legal counsel for the legistraitors who wrote these abysmal laws.

So, no offense, but I feel more comfortable with his researched answers than even a single attorney's answer . . . as attorneys can each look at a law and see merit on both sides of an issue (that is what makes cases and eventually case law) while Ron will report back what the INTENT of the original wording/law/CMR was.

BTW, Ron will NOT take advise from a bean counter (Cosmo), no matter how well intentioned the guy might be. Cosmo was originally hired at CHSB to keep track of the incoming money for licenses, etc. not for his legal expertise. He has been known to have given out wrong legal answers before (going back to 1998) and has been admonished a number of times NOT to give out legal answers before. I think he means well, but is not a legal authority on MA gun laws.

 

[drgrant]

I agree 100%...CHSB could care less who you got it from, they just want to know who has it now...

You could probably write bozo the clown as the seller, and they wouldn't
care. I think they're probably just happy that someone bothered to
register the gun at all. I've heard of far worse abuses of that form
and the CHSB basically says nothing.


-Mike

 

[Cross-X]

Darius,

Ron's "magic" is that his answers are NOT "HIS" ANSWERS, but he spend many hours talking with the CHSB & EOPS attorneys who write CMRs and enforce the laws to get those answers. He even talks with the legal counsel for the legistraitors who wrote these abysmal laws.

So, no offense, but I feel more comfortable with his researched answers than even a single attorney's answer . . . as attorneys can each look at a law and see merit on both sides of an issue (that is what makes cases and eventually case law) while Ron will report back what the INTENT of the original wording/law/CMR was.

BTW, Ron will NOT take advise from a bean counter (Cosmo), no matter how well intentioned the guy might be. Cosmo was originally hired at CHSB to keep track of the incoming money for licenses, etc. not for his legal expertise. He has been known to have given out wrong legal answers before (going back to 1998) and has been admonished a number of times NOT to give out legal answers before. I think he means well, but is not a legal authority on MA gun laws.

Ask yourself this: Does running this transaction through an FFL somehow cleanse the gun owner with the expired permit, somehow improving his legal position? If this is legal, why isn't doing the transfer by FA 10 any less so?

The purpose of the FA 10 form is to notify the CHSB that a transfer has occurred. This is what the new gun owner and old gun owner are doing when they truthfully complete the FA 10.

Chief Glidden isn't immune from freely mixing opinions with what is undeniable fact. In many portions of his textbook it is exceedingly difficult to determine the difference.

Suggesting that he won't take advice from someone simply because who that person is does Chief Glidden an injustice he doesn't deserve.

 

[BillO]

Good point Cross-X.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If you don't have an LTC and you have handguns, aren't you eligible for jail?

If you have not rece3ived adenial on a renewal, I believe you are subject to a $500 fine for an expired permit, rather than the one year illegal posession penalty.

Corrections welcome.

 

[Chris]

There was a recent case that concluded that the Bartly Fox did not apply to a license that had only expired.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Darius,

I think that some research will find that it is perfectly legal for a non-licensee (LTC expired) to:

- turn a gun over to a PD for disposal/destruction. Law states that person makes advance notice and is NOT prosecuted for illegal possession.

- turn a gun over to an FFL for sale, even if seller has no LTC.

NOBODY should be taking legal advice from an accountant, any more than medical advice from an auto mechanic! That's why I try hard to post my sources as I do NOT claim to be a legal expert, but I do take the time to research the answers from expert sources.

 

[Cross-X]

NOBODY should be taking legal advice from an accountant, any more than medical advice from an auto mechanic! ...

So, following your (fatally flawed) logic, none of us should be taking legal advice from a constable, right?

 

[BillO]

It’s too bad that the laws are, to say the least, unclear. My coworker, a decent, law abiding individual, was simply attempting to save significant transfer fees, and keeping his ass out of trouble in the process. I'm suggesting an FFL sale.

 

[Chris]

Gotta love it when the 'Big Guns' go at it.

(Note to self - Never let LTC expire, or easier, just move out of state)

 

[Len-2A Training]

So, following your (fatally flawed) logic, none of us should be taking legal advice from a constable, right?

Darius, absolutely correct, unless it involves the legalities of serving a particular type of process . . . and then verify! You'd be shocked at how many lawyers have asked me to do things that are totally illegal for a Constable to do! Even lawyers are not expert in ALL aspects of law.

Likewise, too often lawyers will call me about serving some process and actually ask me for legal advice about it! Sorry, I'm NOT a lawyer and not qualified to give legal advice! Again, that is why I always try to cite my sources here (or state it as a personal opinion, worth what you paid for it).

 

[Len-2A Training]

Take this for what it is worth, but I recall a conversation that I had with Ron Glidden not long ago about the "grace period".

- He confirmed that during the grace period, one could NOT carry a firearm,

- He confirmed that during the grace period, one could NOT buy a firearm,

- He confirmed that during the grace period, one could NOT buy ammo,

- He confirmed that during the grace period, one could NOT take the gun from the house (unless a properly licensed person was with him/her),

- He confirmed that during the grace period, one could NOT sell/transfer a gun (except to a FFL),

- He confirmed that during the grace period, one could ONLY maintain their guns/ammo/mags in their residence or business (wherever they were located for storage).

A prior discussion that I had with Ron Glidden was precisely related to the issue posted in this thread.

That discussion was due to someone reporting to me that someone possessed some guns without a LTC and wanted to dispose of them. I asked Ron about it and he told me that said person could only legally dispose of them (for money) by giving to FFL for sale, no direct person-to-person sale allowed.

 

[Arioch]

Okay, one more question. I know the local police department should have FA-10 forms available, but I don't believe mine does. Where else can they be had?

 

[Cross-X]

Okay, one more question. I know the local police department should have FA-10 forms available, but I don't believe mine does. Where else can they be had?

Try any other police department. You don't have to be a resident in order to ask for a copy of that form.

 

[Scrivener]

Okay, one more question. I know the local police department should have FA-10 forms available, but I don't believe mine does. Where else can they be had?

I know the Wrentham PD has FA-10s and F 25/26s stacked up in front of the dispatcher's bunker, er, area. Help yourself.