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Self defense sense... you are carrying and...
- Thread starter stantony1
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PaulR
NES Member
Palladin
NES Member
CrackPot
NES Member
Where do I get the bullet proof phone option so when I am talking to 911 and the perp shoots at me I am invulnerable? Or maybe the police showing up during and causing a hostage situation with me inside is good? Or...
Yeah, 911
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ccm75
NES Member
"Shake a soda can and slide it towards a vacant corner) I would. Then order him to drop the weapon, if he doesn't I'd shoot him."
Are you Steven Segal in real life?
I would stay away from taking a salted snack as you maty be seen as an assesory and then if that clerk gets killed it the felony murder rule for you. Better to get an emergency beam out. Leave your communicator channel open at all times.
BattleSnail
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my understanding is that you can use deadly force if your or someone else is in danger of death or grave bodily harm. A robber pointing a presumably loaded firearm in someone's face from well within point blank range says to be that someone is in immediate danger of death or grave bodily harm. You shoot in this scenario, IMO.
You then prepare for the media an legal shit storm, maybe face a huge financial risk, but you sleep well for the rest of you life knowing you didn't just stand there and watch some innocent person get their face blown off while you stood there and did nothing despite having the means to do so. I don't consider this "playing hero", I consider it doing the right thing.
You then prepare for the media an legal shit storm, maybe face a huge financial risk, but you sleep well for the rest of you life knowing you didn't just stand there and watch some innocent person get their face blown off while you stood there and did nothing despite having the means to do so. I don't consider this "playing hero", I consider it doing the right thing.
JayMcB
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Sadly, I don't **KNOW** that I'd shoot to protect the clerk - if I were in MA. The moonbattery-fu of the libtards in the AG office make the decision much harder.
In a free state, it is a different calculus.
In a free state, it is a different calculus.
BattleSnail
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well all you have to do is shoot the gun out of his hand. You don't have to dump a mag into his chest.
/sarc....I've actually heard moonbats say things like this...that you can shoot a gun or knife out of his hands". The believe what they see on tv.
This.
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There is no way in hell I would intervene unless I, or my wife, daughter, etc. was in imminent danger. I would most likely not shoot from the back of the store at the perp for fear of accidentally hitting the store clerk myself with the adrenaline rush. I'd rather roll the dice on him getting shot by the perp, than to intervene only to go down for murder myself just for trying to play hero. WE ARE NOT LEOs, so we don't have the same protections afforded to them, nor are we compelled to intervene just because we happen to be armed.
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
Drop behind cover.........draw.......stay there.......take care of business if business comes your way.
PeterGV
NES Member
I don't get why people are belittling the OP because he posed this hypothetical. I'm sure he knows "real life" has more variables than can be quantified in a short little scenario. But he's trying to think through general rules of when he would use his weapon and how. It's something anyone who carries should do. It's why police and military do scenario drills... OK, not in an internet forum, but not everyone can afford a week in a shoot house with Simunitions. Better to have a basic plan in your head than wait until you encounter a situation in real life and THEN start to think "what's the right thing to do here?"
For ME, the answer is draw while moving to cover, dial 911 (and if it's quiet in the store say nothing, ditch the phone on a shelf, and hope against hope that they locate my phone, if it's noisy in the store keep the phone with me give them the address). At this point, I'm not sure the perp is going to shoot anybody. Heck, it might not even be a real gun.
Either the situation gets better or it gets worse. I react accordingly. Even if he shoots the clerk in the head and starts out the door, I'd be VERY hesitant to shoot a fleeing felon. The rules for when this is justified vary by state, but can be VERY narrow (one such rule, for example, is that I have to be easily identifiable as being "a good guy"... which is not necessarily the case here).
If he shoots the clerk and turns towards me with gun drawn or even JUST turns towards me and raises his gun, I'm pulling the trigger until he stops being a threat. THEN I'm going to try deal with the aftermath, reassure others in the store that I'm a good guy, tell them to stay away from the perp, tell them to call the police and an ambulance, and hold the perp at gunpoint. I reholster as soon as safe to do so.
Scoff all you want... I think discussing these scenarios is important. Everyone's judgement and viewpoint will be different. And a REAL situation will be more different still. That doesn't mean people shouldn't think through what their options in advance.
For ME, the answer is draw while moving to cover, dial 911 (and if it's quiet in the store say nothing, ditch the phone on a shelf, and hope against hope that they locate my phone, if it's noisy in the store keep the phone with me give them the address). At this point, I'm not sure the perp is going to shoot anybody. Heck, it might not even be a real gun.
Either the situation gets better or it gets worse. I react accordingly. Even if he shoots the clerk in the head and starts out the door, I'd be VERY hesitant to shoot a fleeing felon. The rules for when this is justified vary by state, but can be VERY narrow (one such rule, for example, is that I have to be easily identifiable as being "a good guy"... which is not necessarily the case here).
If he shoots the clerk and turns towards me with gun drawn or even JUST turns towards me and raises his gun, I'm pulling the trigger until he stops being a threat. THEN I'm going to try deal with the aftermath, reassure others in the store that I'm a good guy, tell them to stay away from the perp, tell them to call the police and an ambulance, and hold the perp at gunpoint. I reholster as soon as safe to do so.
Scoff all you want... I think discussing these scenarios is important. Everyone's judgement and viewpoint will be different. And a REAL situation will be more different still. That doesn't mean people shouldn't think through what their options in advance.
GM-GUY
NES Member
The trick is, distraction. If I'm in the store, I consider my life at risk - an armed bad guy is holding the place up. You do the best you can, you go with the flow.
Soda can idea is something that would make noise if popped and would draw the BG attention.
In a perfect world; the BG wouldn't rob the store, the clerk would shoot him, I wouldn't have gone into the store in the first place. If I'm there, I'm going to at least consider or do something. I'm not relying on a BG to not do bad things - I'd expect this, so you do what needs to be done and hope for the best.
Soda can idea is something that would make noise if popped and would draw the BG attention.
In a perfect world; the BG wouldn't rob the store, the clerk would shoot him, I wouldn't have gone into the store in the first place. If I'm there, I'm going to at least consider or do something. I'm not relying on a BG to not do bad things - I'd expect this, so you do what needs to be done and hope for the best.
45collector
NES Member
Never have your back to the door if you can help it. In any situation anywhere, anytime. I've been dating my girlfriend since June and she still gives me the "You're so silly" when I insist on facing the front door when being seated at a restaurant.
The OP is talking about shopping at a convenience store but the same applies. Situational awareness, try to have it.
What I'm trying to say is you never know what's going to happen, and you sure as hell won't be trying to remember what you read in this thread if you ever find yourself in a situation like the one described.
The OP is talking about shopping at a convenience store but the same applies. Situational awareness, try to have it.
What I'm trying to say is you never know what's going to happen, and you sure as hell won't be trying to remember what you read in this thread if you ever find yourself in a situation like the one described.
45collector
NES Member
Have you tried the new Twinkies?![[puke]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/023.gif "Puke [puke]")
I never liked the original ones, but the new Drakes Coffee Cakes seem to be the exact same as the originals, which are f*cking delicious.
D
Deleted member 12999
Doesn't mean I can't grab a bag of chips.
I got my B.S. in Tacticals from a reputable online Special Forces degree program. Opinion =Validated
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If I can, I'll use my advanced, tactical knowledge of Nike-fu to di di mau.
I carry my gun to protect me and mine, not to protect the store's insurance company's money.
I carry my gun to protect me and mine, not to protect the store's insurance company's money.
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I don't answer these either. You are not going to react like me. Everyone in every situation will and do react differently. Do you freeze up? Run? Scream? I don't want to know what rambo who is a deadly shot with a pistol at 100 yards would do. That's not me. I don't want to know what joe shmoe who can't hit the side of the bard and has never had a fight or flight response does. That's not me. What I DO do, I go over situations in my own head, taking into account MY ability, resolve and morals and run through what I myself would do. It's not for you to do, I don't know your training, your gun or your reasoning. While I can think what I might do in many many situation, I may or may not do those when the time comes, but at least I'll have a little training and have thought about it before hand to have those options available to me. If and when you ever have to fire a gun in any situation besides the range or hunting, I'd shut the hell up and lawyer up.
Most likely the robber is not a good enough shot to hit you at the back of the store. Most robberies do not result in the clerk getting shot and today most are not even done with a real gun thanks to the real looking air soft guns.
I think I would just asses the situation and wait for it to play out. If the robber started towards me or even pointed his weapon he would get shot with as many rounds as I had in the mag. I would not initiate the gunfire. It would suck if the clerk got shot but that is not what USUALLY happens if they hand over the cash.
Every situation is different and no one knows how they would react in this type of stressful situation. hopefully you will never have to find out.
I think I would just asses the situation and wait for it to play out. If the robber started towards me or even pointed his weapon he would get shot with as many rounds as I had in the mag. I would not initiate the gunfire. It would suck if the clerk got shot but that is not what USUALLY happens if they hand over the cash.
Every situation is different and no one knows how they would react in this type of stressful situation. hopefully you will never have to find out.
I would give the criminal the pone number to MA EBT card benefits 1-800-997-2555 , and have him visit massresources.org on his obama phone to make sure he has appropriate resources to continue turning his life around. Afterall he just needs another chance in life. That way he can legally mooch off the rest of us without endangering anyones life.
I'm under no obligation for anyone but myself and my own. The clerk is a nice guy, I like(d) our little chats, but he should have been carryin.
If I wanted to play cop Id've gone to the academy. There are two situations laid out in the OP, and how it appears to me depends on whether I'm the clerk or the guy with the twinkies. At the end of the day I'm goin home to my family, and that includes not going to jail. Call it cold or cowardly, but I'll deal with watching the clerk get shot if it plays out that way...if the BG turns one earhair in my direction the rules have just changed. I'll be damned if I'm going to jail for shooting first without defending myself or my own trying to prevent something i have no way of knowing will happen. You're gonna screw up the rest of your life for the actions of the BG or the inactions of the clerk, when all you really can control are your own actions.
If the BG turns from the clerk to me is the green light...
OMO
ETA: put another way, when I paid for and took the class, paid for and applied for the license, waited for approval, paid for the gun, ammo and the club membership to practice...not once did it cross my mind that I was doing this, and frankly in MA "subjecting" myself to this, to save or defend store clerks. I did it so that should myself or me and my family find ourselves trapped in the back of a convenience store while some ahole waived a gun around upfront, should he decide to set his sights on me and mine, I wouldn't be left standing there holding my twinkie in my hand.
Nuff said.
If I wanted to play cop Id've gone to the academy. There are two situations laid out in the OP, and how it appears to me depends on whether I'm the clerk or the guy with the twinkies. At the end of the day I'm goin home to my family, and that includes not going to jail. Call it cold or cowardly, but I'll deal with watching the clerk get shot if it plays out that way...if the BG turns one earhair in my direction the rules have just changed. I'll be damned if I'm going to jail for shooting first without defending myself or my own trying to prevent something i have no way of knowing will happen. You're gonna screw up the rest of your life for the actions of the BG or the inactions of the clerk, when all you really can control are your own actions.
If the BG turns from the clerk to me is the green light...
OMO
ETA: put another way, when I paid for and took the class, paid for and applied for the license, waited for approval, paid for the gun, ammo and the club membership to practice...not once did it cross my mind that I was doing this, and frankly in MA "subjecting" myself to this, to save or defend store clerks. I did it so that should myself or me and my family find ourselves trapped in the back of a convenience store while some ahole waived a gun around upfront, should he decide to set his sights on me and mine, I wouldn't be left standing there holding my twinkie in my hand.
Nuff said.
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BattleSnail
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sometimes you gotta wonder with this crowd. They're so afraid of MA that they'd never use their gun yet for some reason carry anyway. I think the gun might be like fashion accessory to them or something that just makes them feel cool.
Assuming no crazy extenuating circumstances in the OP, it's a clean shot on the robber. You'd probably be arrested, detained, and then released. People think in MA you're ALWAYS going to get charged if you ever use your gun in self defense or defense of another and it's just plain untrue. Hell, if I really believed that I'd never have gotten a license to carry.
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So an armed robber is pointing a gun at someone and your gonna lay on the ground? Why do you people carry?[/QUOTE]
To protect MYSELF! Also laying on the ground behind concealment provides a much better position to keep FROM GETTING ****ING SHOT than standing up and confronting the BG. But........you go ahead and stand up straight and tall there like a big tough guy..........
ANd to all you out there saying you'd take a shot at the BG...........watch to many dirty harry movies and think you have perfect lazer straight aim at distance I guess........your not standing next to the BG the OP said youa re at the back of the store.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
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