Self defense sense... you are carrying and...

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stantony1 said:
Thanks everyone! One of the goals here was to determine self defense. Is it just yourself or the defense of other innocents. From most of the feedback, it's yourself and let the fate determine the clerk's life.
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Well none of that is based on any sort of real life case law so if that's the conclusion you draw go right ahead. I have a hard time believing a jury would convict you for smoking some dude who had a gun in a cashiers face, make that doubly so if you have no ability to reach the exit, which is likely the case since the cash register is usually by the door.

As I said, every situation is unique. I carry a gun to defend myself, not play cop. I'm also not going to watch some innocent person get murdered if I can do something about it (gun or no gun). If you can live with that the rest of your life, that's on you.

Mike
 
Scenario 6: Cowardly dive into display of heavily salted snack treats. (rep point for the first person who gets the reference without using Google)[/QUOTE]

wasnt that from the simpsons?
 
Martlet said:
Any sound advice that involves me getting shot at doesn't sound that logical or sound.
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Same here. The sound part at least. I'm kind of an *******, so it would be kind of logical for someone to shoot at me.
 
stantony1 said:
Ok so I thought about these ending scenarios in a public incident. And please forgive any errors in logic. I am posting this to see what you folks think you would do OR what you HAVE done if you experienced this for real.

You are in a convenience store back of the store getting some of them new Twinkies. You bend down to pick up a dime you find and are hidden from view for a bit.

You get back up... You look up and at the front of the store, there is a robber with a gun and he is pointing it at the clerk and demanding money. The robber then notices you are back there.

Scenario 1: You stay still and hands up. The clerk gives the register cash to the robber and the robber leaves. I do not draw because no one is in danger of getting shot since the clerk complied.
Scenario 2: The robber shoots the clerk. I draw and fire because there is a high potential that he will turn to shoot me to get rid of witnesses.
Scenario 3: Fearing for my life, I draw and shoot, everyone but the robber is ok, he is now mortally wounded.

My problem is with #1 and #3.
Should I draw and warn him off and escalate the situation for #1
OR just shoot for situation #3?

Let me know your thoughts! Thank you.
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Rider said:
I really hate these threads. There are way too many variables to war game it, and too many local considerations. I have lived in places where shooting a person for being in your house was obvious self defense, and now I live in a place where farting on a guy who is raping your wife constitutes a hate crime. One of the things I mis most about living in Vegas was that if you were at home and killed a guy in your house(who wasn't supposed to be there) they assumed it was self defense.

Stop f****** around and resolve to do what you believe is necessary in a given situation and accept the consequences. And keep in mind that you own anyone you kill in any of these scenarios. By 'own', I mean that nice lady outside who just took a bullet in the head because your aim sucks and you're all jacked up on adrenaline.
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Almost this exact scenario happened to a criminal defense attorney who used to shoot with me back in the 1970s. He decided to just observe and not draw! Nobody got shot.

See what I bolded above! Just behind the register in most stores are windows, parking lot, sidewalk and YOU OWN every bullet (and there is a lawyer attached to each one)! You miss and you will pay for it for the rest of your life, at least in MA.
 
LenS said:
[/B]
Almost this exact scenario happened to a criminal defense attorney who used to shoot with me back in the 1970s. He decided to just observe and not draw! Nobody got shot.

See what I bolded above! Just behind the register in most stores are windows, parking lot, sidewalk and YOU OWN every bullet (and there is a lawyer attached to each one)! You miss and you will pay for it for the rest of your life, at least in MA.
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Any case law to back this up, I'm truly interested? I've been under the impression for a while that the person responsible for the shooting (IE the armed assailant at whom you are shooting) is considered "responsible" for the outcome of even the shots directed at him.

Mike
 
Mike, I don't track case law (which is very difficult to do in MA anyway), so have no cites, sorry.

When police do it, they do as you suggested (like NYPD case now being discussed), but civilians won't be given that sort of latitude (even though I can't readily prove it).

Perhaps one of the attorneys or Rob Boudrie (who tracks case law) can add something here?
 
crazymjb said:
Any case law to back this up, I'm truly interested? I've been under the impression for a while that the person responsible for the shooting (IE the armed assailant at whom you are shooting) is considered "responsible" for the outcome of even the shots directed at him.

Mike
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And I'll counter with "Do you have a case law or specific legal cite for that?" We all know how sue happy society has become, even if someone is sprinkled with glass, you can bet they're going to sue you in civil court for something.
 
I don't off the top of my head... hence why I was asking. I remember hearing about some guy who shot back at a drive by shooter (I think while cleaning up trash or graffiti) and a bystander was hit or property was damaged by the return fire (from a ccwer) and they mentioned tacking that on as an additional charge to the original assailant. I unfortunately have been unable to find the story so at that its just a story, unless someone remembers what Im talking about.

Legally the argument makes sense to me assuming the shooter is deemed justified, which from the sound of it these nypd officers may not have been.

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2
 
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MA is not Philly or Tuscaloosa. What passes for "self defense" elsewhere may well not fly in MA (where "we discourage self help") . . . seriously.
 
I understand that... this was with 2 minutes of googling. I still tend to believe if you were involved in a justifoed self defense shooting and a bystander was hurt in the end it would work out in your favor.

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2
 
in mass i wouldn't shoot. not worth life in prison. out here in the more conservative state of idaho id probably draw and not hesitate to fire. people don't take kindly to that behavior around here.

but he was probably just turning his life around [rolleyes]

idaho law:
TITLE 19CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

CHAPTER 2PREVENTION OF PUBLIC OFFENSES
​
19-202A. LEGAL JEOPARDY IN CASES OF SELF-DEFENSE AND DEFENSE OF OTHER THREATENED PARTIES. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting himself or his family by reasonable means necessary, or when coming to the aid of another whom he reasonably believes to be in imminent danger of or the victim of aggravated assault, robbery, rape, murder or other heinous crime.




 
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I
drgrant said:
I carry around bluetooth speakers with me... so while the thief is distracted, I would place this on the display playing this song at maximum volume.

This. [rofl]



As soon as the would be armed robber hears it he will go "WHAT THE **** IS THAT??? MAKE IT STOP!!!!" and as he is distracted by the source of the sound,, I will then execute a commando roll to the right behind an end display of twinkies while simultaneously drawing my Glock carried IWB, culminated by bouncing up at the end into a spring jump thing, taking aim and delivering a perfectly timed Mozambique drill into the BG while he is mesmerized by the effects of french rap music.

-Mike
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I don't see how anyone could make any decision based on those limited facts provided. To post how you'd handle it here is complete nonsense. If this event would happen there are 1000 other factors that will need to be taken into account before any decision is made both consciously and subconsciously. There are too many unknown in these limited information scenarios. In addition, there is the whole idea that you don't really know how your brain and body will react in a high pressure situation like this. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the majority of the members here have not ever had to use a firearm on another person.

All that said... can you hear any helicopters overhead? If yes, duck for cover and post on NES. If no, post about hypothetical helicopters.
 
stantony1 said:
Thanks everyone! One of the goals here was to determine self defense. Is it just yourself or the defense of other innocents. From most of the feedback, it's yourself and let the fate determine the clerk's life.
Click to expand...


Here's my understanding of self defense and the use of deadly force (In MA).


1. You may never use deadly force to defend property
2. Outside of your home you have a duty to retreat
3. You must be in imminent danger of serious bodily harm or death
4. You can never be part of the escalation of violence

In the OP scenario could you have retreated out the back door? Were you really in imminent danger since the perp was demanding money and may have likely never harmed anyone if he got what he wanted? These things are never black and white so people can MMQB until the end of time and all answers are pure speculation. As others have said you own every bullet so to open fire in that scenario is a tough call. You could easily do way more harm than good. Let's just hope we never have to make that decision.
 
See Bold

CCW said:
Here's my understanding of self defense and the use of deadly force (In MA).


1. You may never use deadly force to defend property
2. Outside of your home you have a duty to retreat If it is safe to do so
3. You or another innocent party must be in imminent danger of serious bodily harm or death
4. You can never be part of the escalation of violence

In the OP scenario could you have retreated out the back door? Were you really in imminent danger since the perp was demanding money and may have likely never harmed anyone if he got what he wanted? These things are never black and white so people can MMQB until the end of time and all answers are pure speculation. As others have said you own every bullet so to open fire in that scenario is a tough call. You could easily do way more harm than good. Let's just hope we never have to make that decision.
Click to expand...
 
In general, I hate bad guys. If I could distract a guy with a gun to get him to point it somewhere away from people (Shake a soda can and slide it towards a vacant corner) I would. Then order him to drop the weapon, if he doesn't I'd shoot him.

Might get me jammed up, it might not, but a bad guy with a gun is a danger to everyone; the next he'll shoot someone or the time after that, or maybe he already has - a bad guy with a gun is a danger.
 
WallHack said:
Hit the deck, draw, stay there, shoot if shot at.
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Bingo. Could not agree more. Not much you can do for the clerk standing in the back of the store.....any shot made on the robber is likely to be errant and possibly strike the clerk. Draw......get behind cover......fire if fired on.
 
2nurqc0.gif


WHAT'S GOING ON IN THIS FINE ESTABLISHMENT?!
 
stantony1 said:
Ok so I thought about these ending scenarios in a public incident. And please forgive any errors in logic. I am posting this to see what you folks think you would do OR what you HAVE done if you experienced this for real.

You are in a convenience store back of the store getting some of them new Twinkies. You bend down to pick up a dime you find and are hidden from view for a bit.

You get back up... You look up and at the front of the store, there is a robber with a gun and he is pointing it at the clerk and demanding money. The robber then notices you are back there.

Scenario 1: You stay still and hands up. The clerk gives the register cash to the robber and the robber leaves. I do not draw because no one is in danger of getting shot since the clerk complied.
Scenario 2: The robber shoots the clerk. I draw and fire because there is a high potential that he will turn to shoot me to get rid of witnesses.
Scenario 3: Fearing for my life, I draw and shoot, everyone but the robber is ok, he is now mortally wounded.

My problem is with #1 and #3.
Should I draw and warn him off and escalate the situation for #1
OR just shoot for situation #3?

Let me know your thoughts! Thank you.
Click to expand...

Logic fail in #1. You assume that just because the clerk is complying that he won't shoot anyone.
 
My wife asked me basically the same question except we were at a restaurant. She asked "what if someone came in and started to rob the restaurant?" I told her that it was not my problem. "Well, what if they came around to each table and demanded everyone's stuff?" So I asked if they were pointing a gun at me or her, "yes" she says. Then I would do the "Hans Solo" shoot the idiot from under the table trick, then light up a Newport. But really, I said, why think this crap up? You go with the flow.

The last thing I would want is a "Pulp Fiction" at the diner scene. Jesus Christ.

Short answer, not my problem.
Shooting starts, depends where I am standing. or sitting, or laying on the floor................
 
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