Self defense ammo (from the embedded in head thread)

[vellnueve]

After reading about the guy who was shot in the forehead and the bullet didn't penetrate, I'm worried about the ammunition I use for defense. I currently use the plastic box Hydra Shoks in .357 (158gr) and .40 (180 gr) in a SW 520 and G22, and it seems that some people on this forum consider these loads to have inferior ballistics and might be at risk... just to be sure I replaced the .40s with standard PMC JHPs.

What do you guys use for your personal defense guns? Standard Federal HSTs, Gold Dots, Silvertips, Golden Sabers, or what?

 

[drgrant]

Here's my list, for the calibers I'm familiar with: Most of these have been
proven out by Ammolab (when it was running) to not be crap.

Standard disclaimer: Shot placement is critical... always has been
always will be, but you already knew that.

9mm
Speer Gold Dot 124 gn, 124gn +P
Rem Golden Sabre 124gn, 124gn +P
Federal P9HS1 (124 gn, old hydrashock load, probably not made anymore)
Federal HST2 124gn, 124gn +P
Winchester Ranger 127gn +P+
Win Ranger 147 gn
Speer Gold Dot 147 gn

My overall favorite by far out of these is the Speer GDHP 124gn +P load.
(Coincidentally, it's also the NYPD duty load).

If one is recoil shy, the 147 gn loads are the way to go... but even the
124+P GDHP isn't all that harsh overall.

.38 SPL

-Speer GDHP 135gn +P load. (one of the better snubby loads out there)

(Note: Out of a snub, just about everything is a crapshoot and fails the
FBI ammo tests, so in a lot of cases it's a toss up. Some favor 158 gn
SWC loads, etc. Things look alot better stepping up even to a 3" bbl, and
way better at 4", due to the increased velocity making the HP work properly. At
snub velocities, most of the .38 loads dont make enough fps to get the JHP
to open well. 2" bbls can't generate enough juice )

.357 Magnum

-Speer GDHP 125 gn load. There are other loads in same bullet weight
that probably work as well, but this one definitely comes to mind first.


.357 Sig
Speer 125 gn GDHP - This is the FAM load, and is pretty much the
be all end all in that caliber. The Win Ranger load is pretty good
too in similar bullet weight, but is a LOT harder to find.


.40 S+W
-Winchester Ranger 165gn
-Winchester Ranger 180 gn
-Speer Gold Dot HP 165 gn
-Speer Gold Dot HP 180 gn

.45 ACP
-Taurus / PMC 185 gn copper hex (hard to find now, but good load, Corbon DPX might replicate, although their version is +P. )
-Remington Golden Sabre 230 gn (in regular or bonded core versions)
(This load is EXCELLENT in terms of feed reliability. If your gun doesn't
feed this load, something is wrong with it. )
-Speer Gold Dot 230 gn.
-Federal HST2 230 gn
-Win Ranger 230 gn (RA45T is the PN, I believe)

10mm Auto
-Winchester Silvertip 175 gn
-Doubletap 165gn or 180gn GDHP loadings.

Other decent stuff:
-DoubleTap ammo (he makes GDHP analogues, but better, and also has
a schweet 10mm Auto GDHP load). Obviously light bullet weights
approach gimmick zone, but most of his ammo is top notch. (mainly due
to the quality and velocity range of the speer GDHP bullets used).

Loads to AVOID like the plague:
Note: It's not that any of these -won't- work, it's just that during
testing, these loads all seem extremely lackluster to say the least, for
various reasons. Expansion failures, Penetration failures, or failures to
expand when faced with denim, etc.

-Any 9mm load in 115 gn bullet weight... bullet doesn't weigh enough to
penetrate far enough. Junk. 115 is fine for practice, but not much else.

-Any winchester "SXT premium" stuff in the black box, was supposed
to replace talon in consumer line, but most of it is shit, with the exception
of the 45 and 10mm Silvertips. (The 45 silvertip isn't too incredible, but
it works good enough in gel to not call it trash, either. Seems very low
recoiling as well. ) Both of THOSE come in a grey, not a black box,
though.

-Magsafe - more gimmick ammo. Overpriced Trash.

-Extreme Shock Ammo - Same as above, but costs more!

-Glaser Safety Slugs (Although, given a choice I'd take glaser any day of the
week over magsafe due to QC issues.. at least glasers
don't disintegrate in peoples guns!)

-Any Corbon load that doesn't have a DPX bullet in it; their regular JHPs are
a trash bullet design. (lots of expansion failures in testing).

-Old federal 230 gn hydrashocks (note, this is NOT the HST2 loading, which
works much better... but the previous generation of 230 gn hydrashocks
were trash... they just act like overpriced FMJ in even bare balgel.

-Federals personal defense line- many cases of overpenetration or expansion
failure in gel tests, with a few exceptions. The only redeeming feature of
this ammo is it's low recoil and good feed characteristics. (their .380 stuff
feeds well, and is probably no more or less lethal than any of the other
.380 loads... course .380 is in the danger zone anyways, but better than
nothing!)

-Federal EFMJ - Unless you can somehow or another legally carry in NJ,
this stuff is basically worthless. One department has dumped it already
because of numerous field failures of the bullet. (Maybe they just didn't
try it long enough, but the empirical evidence was that the perps were
taking too many hits without going down... )

Just my .02 cents. Take it for whatever it is or isn't worth.

Note: Those having trouble getting Win Rangers.... Hint- they show up at gun
shows quite frequently, and there are at least one or two guys that sell them
online via mail order.


-Mike

 

[Davidk]

The current hot round is Corbon's DPX in all calibers. It has much better pentration through clothing and alike. While other HPs get bogged down in the 4 layers of demin test, the DPX goes right through and expands like the demin was not there.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

More on DPX

From John Farnam . . .

John Farnam's Quips - 10Apr06
Pistol Bullet Performance:

The last time we did a bullet performance test was during a course in PA early last year. At that time, friend and colleague, Mike Shovel from Cor- Bon brought out huge blocks of ballistic gelatin, and we shot them with a variety of commercially-available, high-performance pistol ammunition. We required each bullet to first penetrate four layers of denim before entering the gelatin.

At that time, we discovered that denim retarded and frustrated th e expansion of a number of conventional, hollow-point bullets. In bare gelatin, most expanded just fine, but the denim barrier presented a problem for all but a few.

Last weekend, again in PA, Mike joined us once more for an Advanced Defensive Pistol Course, The gelatin tests continued:

Many commented last time that they wondered what effect a heavy, leather jacket would have on pistol-bullet performance and penetration. So, this time we required each bullet to penetrate a leather jacket AND four layers of denim before entering the gelatin. Each student subjected his own, carry ammunition to the test. Here is what we found:

The combination of leather and denim frustrated most conventional, hollow-points. Most traversed the gelatin with badly-compromised expansion .

Some did not expand at all. Even Cor-Bon's vaunted PowerBall (45ACP, out of my Detonics) did not do well in this test. I was surprised, as few rounds will out-expand PowerBall, but the layers of clothing, combined with the Detonics' short barrel, conspired to thwart performance.

The one round that expanded consistently and completely, despite the leather and denim barrier, in all calibers, was Cor-Bon's DPX! DPX, in 40S &W, 45ACP, 357SIG, 38Super, and 45AutoRim, were all unimpressed by the leather and denim.

Even 380Auto DPX, out of my little Kel-Tec, was immune. It expanded symmetrically and completely, penetrating nine inches of gelatin, after penetrating the clothing.

I am more persuaded than ever that DPX provides superior performance in the widest spectrum of circumstances, consistently outperforming any other bullet of which I am aware.
/John

and . . .

John Farnam's Quips - 13Apr06

Cor-Bon DPX on auto glass:

"John, we're fresh form attending a two-day AVOPS (Armed Vehicle Operations) course in IN. During the final afternoon we were able to conduct testing on the windshield of a 1991 Lincoln sedan. We had been advised that, when shooting from inside a vehicle out, or outside a vehicle in, the windshield will cause the bullet to deviate up to six inches from the point of aim. This general rule held true with every high-performance pistol round we tried.

All but one, that is. Cor-Bon DPX stayed directly on target even after penetrating laminated, angled, windshield glass. There was NO deflection at all. There was also no disintegration of the bullet, as it passed through from either direction. Point of aim was point of impact, both ways!

Two calibers were tested: DPX 45ACP from a Glock 30, and the DPX 40S&W from a Beretta 96.

We have yet to find a downside to DPX!"

Comment: DPX is a stellar performer in a wide spectrum of circumstances. Hard to beat!
/John

 

[wheelgun]

Loads to AVOID like the plague:
Note: It's not that any of these -won't- work, it's just that during
testing, these loads all seem extremely lackluster to say the least, for
various reasons. Expansion failures, Penetration failures, or failures to
expand when faced with denim, etc.

-Any 9mm load in 115 gn bullet weight... bullet doesn't weigh enough to
penetrate far enough. Junk. 115 is fine for practice, but not much else.


-Mike

Although I agree with most of you said, I find it hard to buy that a 124gr standard velocity round is OK but a 115gr is "junk". Given the same velocity (actually the 124 Speer GD is a bit slower than the 115), the only difference is about 7% less mass.
Perhaps what you say is true with some manufacturers, but certainly not all. I've seen the results of gelatin and wet newspaper tests with all the various 9mm flavors, and in the case of GD's they all peeled back, expanding and penetrating nicely.

Don't get me wrong - personally I only use the 124gr +P, and I wouldn't use the others. But I wouldn't call them junk to be avoided like the plague either.

 

[Jose]

9 mm: Speer Gold Dot 124 +P

223 Remington: Hornady Reman 75 gr BTHP

 

[Emoto]

Some say that the best ammo for your carry gun is whatever your local PD carries in their guns. Doing this, it is said, immunizes you from having to defend your choice of ammo, should litigation arise from you being involved in a defensive shooting.

 

[Jose]

Some say that the best ammo for your carry gun is whatever your local PD carries in their guns. Doing this, it is said, immunizes you from having to defend your choice of ammo, should litigation arise from you being involved in a defensive shooting.

This topic was discussed about two years ago on arfcom. A couple of members who said they are lawyers and posted their credentials researched the issue of both ammo and firearm type and their relevance to the outcome of civil and criminal litigation arising out of self-defense shootings.

They found that as long as the shooting met the legal criteria of justifiable deadly force in the jurisdiction where it occured, the type of firearm or ammunition had no bearing on the outcome of the case.

That's why I don't care what ammo the Miami County Sheriff's Office issues, and why I do not lose a single second of sleep over the fact that I have chosen an evil black rifle (instead of a fudd shotgun) as my primary means of home defense.

 

[Davidk]

The factors relative to importance in choosing a bullet;

1. Must function 100% in YOUR gun
2. Must function 100% in YOUR gun
3. Must function 100% in YOUR gun
4. Shooter must be able to control it well. If it is too powerful for the shooter, follow up shots will be difficult and it would be choose to reduce the load.
5. Stopping power of the round.

Handguns, no matter the caliber or the bullet, have VERY LITTLE stopping power.

The most important factor is stopping an attacker is shot placement. A poorly place "great" bullet will be far less effective than a properly place "poor" bullet.

That said, it is very difficult to place shots in the proper location under extreme stress while both the shooter and target are moving.

The only solution is to place the shots as best you can and keep shooting as long as the target is a threat. Put as much hurt on the target as fast as you can.

All that said, I prefer the big bullet theory. I figure the bigger the whole I put in the more damage it will do and the faster by fire will be effective.

As previously stated, the top performing bullet in all calibers is Corbon DPX due to its ability to penetrate through things like clothing and glass. If it feeds perfectly in your gun and you can shoot it well, that will be your best choice.

Before I carry any ammo in a semi-auto, I function test it in my firearm. My gun must be able to shoot 200 rounds in a row flawlessly before I will use that gun and ammo. Its expensive, but necessary.

---
armedresponsebook.com

 

[dwarven1]

Can someone explain to me the rationale behind putting FOUR layers of denim in front of the ballistic gelatin? Does ANYONE really wear 4 layers of denim?

I mean, right now I'm wearing a t-shirt and a long-sleeve T-shirt. While I was shooting today, I was wearing a sweatshirt and a down vest over the shirts (vest was later swapped out for a heavy parka; I was cold). But I seriously doubt that that equalled four layers of denim.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Can someone explain to me the rationale behind putting FOUR layers of denim in front of the ballistic gelatin? Does ANYONE really wear 4 layers of denim?

The same reason they look for 15" of penetration:

You might have to shoot through an arm to get at the good stuff.

 

[jhrosier]

Speer .40S&W 180 gr. Lawman TCs have always functioned perfectly for me.
I'm not ready to subscribe to any expansion theory as 100% reliable so I'll settle for good penetration.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

This topic was discussed about two years ago on arfcom. A couple of members who said they are lawyers and posted their credentials researched the issue of both ammo and firearm type and their relevance to the outcome of civil and criminal litigation arising out of self-defense shootings.

They found that as long as the shooting met the legal criteria of justifiable deadly force in the jurisdiction where it occured, the type of firearm or ammunition had no bearing on the outcome of the case.

That's why I don't care what ammo the Miami County Sheriff's Office issues, and why I do not lose a single second of sleep over the fact that I have chosen an evil black rifle (instead of a fudd shotgun) as my primary means of home defense.

The problem with this logic is that it addresses the wrong question.

It will cost you 50 to 100 grand to defend yourself succesfully against homicide charges.

Since we'll never know which facts the prosecutor used to decide whether or not to prosecute, there is no way to research whether or not the fact that you were carrying the same rounds the local police were using, instead of rounds the ignorant prosecutor thought he might be able to use as evidence against you, was the deciding fact as whether to charge you or drop the whole thing as unwinnable.

It's nice that there is no evidence that carrying "evil" rounds will hurt you at trial, but I'd rather avoid the whole trial in the first place, if I can.

Regards
John

 

[Jose]

The problem with this logic is that it addresses the wrong question.

Negative, Ghostrider.

If you are unlucky enough to live someplace where the DA is more intersted in politics than in justice, you are going to trial regardless of the ammo you used.

Believe it or not, there are still some PDs that issue FMJ. Are YOU going to use that crap? I am not.

Like I said, I prepare my defensive plans with only one thing in mind: neutralizing an attack as quickly and as effectively as possible. For everything else, I'll pay a lawyer. Having DA-approved guns and ammo does you no good if you are dead.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Negative, Ghostrider.

If you are unlucky enough to live someplace where the DA is more intersted in politics than in justice, you are going to trial regardless of the ammo you used.

Believe it or not, there are still some PDs that issue FMJ. Are YOU going to use that crap? I am not.

Like I said, I prepare my defensive plans with only one thing in mind: neutralizing an attack as quickly and as effectively as possible. For everything else, I'll pay a lawyer. Having DA-approved guns and ammo does you no good if you are dead.

Not disagreeing with that, nor am I advocating that you use something ineffective, like FMJ, just because the local constabulary does.

I'm saying that people who run around claiming that "It doesn't matter which bullets you use or which gun you use because no one can point to any case where somebody LOST because of that!" have missed the point.

I'm saying that if you are SMART, you can pick a gun and/or bullet that will be effective AND be less likely to cost you 50 grand in lawyers's fees.

As in: a 30/30 lever action deer rifle may not be as "tacticool" as an M-4 look-alike in that girlyman 223 caliber, but it will have SIGNIFICANTLY more stopping power AND make it SOMEWHAT less likely - at least in some jurisdictions, though probably not in the People's Democratic Republic of Massachusetts - that the local prosecutor will come after you if you are forced to shoot someone. Maybe.

But if you're smart, you'll use the 30/30 instead of the M-4. For the same reason you'll say, "This man attacked me and forced me to shoot him in self-defense!" instead of "This punk tried to f*** with me, so I wasted him!"

Regards
John

 

[Jose]

John, your username is very fitting.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Optimistic Paranoid, here's my thought process on picking ammo (in order of importance):

1. Keep from getting dead.
2. Worry about the lawyers.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

John, your username is very fitting.

I hope so.

I got the phrase from a David Weber novel. The character in question was a Captain in Naval Intelligence, who had been an olympic class weightlifter and greco-roman wrestler. He was described as an optimistic paranoid - that is, someone who expected that most of the people he ran into were probably up to something, but who was unconcerned because he knew that he could deal with them if they were stupid enough to mess with him.

I know I've got the paranoid part down. The multiple training courses I've taken over the years are part of my effort to make the optimistic part a reality.

Regards
John

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Optimistic Paranoid, here's my thought process on picking ammo (in order of importance):

1. Keep from getting dead.
2. Worry about the lawyers.

Oh, mine too, definitely.

This was more a comment on the thought processes of the people (the lawyers on the other forum that were first alluded to by Jose) who think it's ok to use any ammo or gun since "they can't find any evidence that it ever led to a conviction."

That's nice. Wouldn't it be even nicer if you could avoid being charged in the first place?

In some places, I'm sure it wouldn't matter which gun or bullet you use. In others, well, who knows what goes through a prosecutors mind when he has to weigh bringing charges or not? And that's not something that will ever show up in the research these "experts" did that led them to the conclusion that "it doesn't matter which gun or bullet you use."

I'm simply suggesting that the "research" is flawed because it's based on a flawed premise.

Ah, well, I think I've made my point and I'm going to quit flogging this horse.

Merry Christmas to you and Jose and everyone else here.

Regards
John

 

[Jose]

Not disagreeing with that, nor am I advocating that you use something ineffective, like FMJ, just because the local constabulary does.

I'm saying that people who run around claiming that "It doesn't matter which bullets you use or which gun you use because no one can point to any case where somebody LOST because of that!" have missed the point.

I'm saying that if you are SMART, you can pick a gun and/or bullet that will be effective AND be less likely to cost you 50 grand in lawyers's fees.

As in: a 30/30 lever action deer rifle may not be as "tacticool" as an M-4 look-alike in that girlyman 223 caliber, but it will have SIGNIFICANTLY more stopping power AND make it SOMEWHAT less likely - at least in some jurisdictions, though probably not in the People's Democratic Republic of Massachusetts - that the local prosecutor will come after you if you are forced to shoot someone. Maybe.

But if you're smart, you'll use the 30/30 instead of the M-4. For the same reason you'll say, "This man attacked me and forced me to shoot him in self-defense!" instead of "This punk tried to f*** with me, so I wasted him!"

Regards
John

So in one breath you tell me that using the same ammo police use will reduce the chances of me being prosecuted, and in the next you tell me NOT to use the same type of long gun most commonly used by police (AR15 carbine) because it will increase my chances of being prosecuted.

Admit it. You've made all this stuff up. You have zero evidence that either ammo or weapon have any bearing on anything that happens after a good shooting.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

So in one breath you tell me that using the same ammo police use will reduce the chances of me being prosecuted, and in the next you tell me NOT to use the same type of long gun most commonly used by police (AR15 carbine) because it will increase my chances of being prosecuted.

Admit it. You've made all this stuff up. You have zero evidence that either ammo or weapon have any bearing on anything that happens after a good shooting.

Jose, EVERYBODY has zero evidence about what goes on in a prosecutor's mind as he's trying to decide whether or not to prosecute following a shooting.

I read somewhere that there is something like 3,000 counties in the United States, which means that there are 3,000 different prosecutor's offices, so there are no hard and fast rules that work everywhere. All anyone has is THEORIES.

I think that using the same ammo that your local police are using MIGHT make some prosecutors think that they have one less argument to put to the jury, and therefor are less likely to get a conviction, and therefor MIGHT be the difference between whether he brings charges or not.

Likewise, I think that shooting somebody with a deer rifle that everybody in your community has, as opposed to shooting someone with a gun that a lot of ignorant, ill-informed people think only the military and police have any legitimate need for MIGHT also fall into the same category.

I have no need to make stuff up, and no particular desire to get into long, tedious Internet arguments with somebody who disagrees with me.

It's YOUR karma, dude, so by all means stock up on all the killer commando guns and bullets you want, since no one can "prove" it will lead to your conviction following a shooting.

Regards
John

 

[Jose]

by all means stock up on all the killer commando guns and bullets you want

A fudd. Just like I thought.

 

[Jaxon]

 

[drgrant]

Don't get me wrong - personally I only use the 124gr +P, and I wouldn't use the others. But I wouldn't call them junk to be avoided like the plague either.

The difference in penetration depth is enough to make the 115s fail the
FBI ammo testing protocol. That's why I hate them. They probably
expand okay with the right bullet design, but you often end up with
shallow penetration. Most of the lab tests on 115 didn't fare out so
well, either. I just think there's no point in using it when there are
heavier bullets around. (that work better across a wider variety of
conditions).

FWIW, in the 1986 miami shootout- one of the agents hit one of
the men with a 115 gr silvertip. It stopped like less than an inch
from the perp's heart. If the agents had better ammo at the time, that
shot would have taken the perp out of the fight a LOT earlier, hard it
traveled that extra distance to his heart.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Some say that the best ammo for your carry gun is whatever your local PD carries in their guns. Doing this, it is said, immunizes you from having to defend your choice of ammo, should litigation arise from you being involved in a defensive shooting.

The bottom line on that question depends on the user's own
perspective- you either "sniff the ayoob fumes" or you don't. I personally
don't. I personally do not believe that a bullet will "make or break" a
case. Will it add BS? maybe. Nobody's been able to show us a case
where someone using a certain kind of gun or bullet was an overriding
factor in any self defense case. Notice the bolding- that parts
critical, if the lawyer is trying to pawn it off as an accident, or some
other crap, then anything can happen as he's already decided to do
damage control instead of defending you.

FWIW, if one is truly paranoid, that assertion could be taken to task as well... some jackass prosecutor could
go "But why did mr xxx need bullets that were as powerful as the ones that police use?!?!" or some other
junk. Or to extrapolate this- Why did mr XXX use a rifle powerful enough to take down a large
elk to defend himself? You think of it, the DA will invent it, even though we know it's all BS.


-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Can someone explain to me the rationale behind putting FOUR layers of denim in front of the ballistic gelatin? Does ANYONE really wear 4 layers of denim?

It more accurately models bullet performance through a variety of
clothing layers. If the JHP can make it thorough 4 layers of garbage
without the expansion properties being affected, then that means it's a
well designed bullet.

-Mike

 

[Producer]

Am I missing something? No one has mentioned the Aguila IQ line of rounds. Especially in .40 cal.

I am no expert in the area, but the reviews on the .40 have been one of the best for penetrating solid surfaces and breaking apart in gel.

 

[TXDMERC]

the 147gr Speer Standard load GDHP penetrate through glass and wood very good i have my 9mm loaded wiht them cuz ya never know some idiot is trying to run me over with a vehicle it is important to have bullets that penetrate thru auto glass windshield as well.

 

[Masterguns]

i currently use 180gr .40 S&W hydra-shok

glaser blue tips can be good depending on the situation (for example if you live in an apartment and dont want to overpenetrate and shoot little johnny next door

 

[jobowker]

Can someone explain to me the rationale behind putting FOUR layers of denim in front of the ballistic gelatin? Does ANYONE really wear 4 layers of denim?

I mean, right now I'm wearing a t-shirt and a long-sleeve T-shirt. While I was shooting today, I was wearing a sweatshirt and a down vest over the shirts (vest was later swapped out for a heavy parka; I was cold). But I seriously doubt that that equalled four layers of denim.

If you are wearing a denim jacket and get shot where there's a covered pocket, the cover of the pocket can be made of two layers of denim (back to back) and the pocket makes a third layer, and the jacket itself would make the fourth. If you hit someone's arm, it's at least three layers of denim - one to go in the arm, another to come back out of the arm, and a third to penetrate the main part of the jacket. the front seam of a jean jacket can have the material folded over itself on each side of the jacket, and then the two sides of the jacket would overlap unless unbuttoned.

I think four layers are easier than you'd think.