S 2265 (aka HB4285, 4278, 4121) out of Senate Ways and Means (FID Suitability)

[Greschner 4]

Hot off the presses from my Rep:

I wanted to inform you that I voted in favor of the revised “An Act Relative to the Reduction of Gun Violence.” I did so because I believe it will enhance our public safety, while actually improving the process for law abiding citizens to own firearms. This legislation was significantly revised after it was initially filed to address legitimate concerns of licensed gun owners, while maintaining provisions to reduce gun trafficking and gun violence. Some highlights include changing the “suitability” standards to require chiefs to provide in writing the reason(s) he/she denied a license. There are also meaningful appeals.

The legislation also eliminates the 90 day expiration dates of licenses to carry and FID cards, so long as the applicant has applied for renewal in a timely manner. This will eliminate what was a serious problem when license holders saw their licenses expire because of a backlog at the state level. At the time of renewal, an applicant will now receive a receipt, showing he/she timely applied for a renewal.

The bill also establishes a criminal firearms and trafficking unit within the State Police. It also establishes numerous programs to help prevent suicides. It is estimated that 60 percent of gun deaths are suicides. The bill also incorporates Massachusetts into the National Instant Background Check System.

So, it is my belief that this bill actually improves the ability of law abiding citizens to obtain guns, while striving to ensure those not suitable to carry a weapon be prohibited from doing so, and strengthening the safety and security of our schools. I have also attached a statement that GOAL has sent out regarding the bill and a summary. (See Below)

I thank you for taking the time to contact me about this important issue and please note I did take into consideration the many emails and phone calls I received as I made my vote to support this revised legislation.

Respectfully,

Jerry Parisella
State Representative
6th Essex District (Beverly)
617-722-2877

 

[Lank]

Can anyone point me to the actual text of HB4278?

Google searches bring me back to NES. Thx

 

[Palladin]

Can anyone point me to the actual text of HB4278?


Google searches bring me back to NES. Thx

Search on the comm of ma House website under bills . H4278. It's there, with amendments, as passed

 

[jasons]

Can anyone point me to the actual text of HB4278?

Google searches bring me back to NES. Thx

https://malegislature.gov/Bills/188/House/H4278/

 

[oldsoldier29]

Was any current burden/restriction that we have under the current "already-one-of-the-most-restrictive-gun-laws-in-the-nation" lifted? If the answer is NO then we did not win and did lose. They still have CoP discretion, for example. Any ******* CoP can decide your LTC faith (yeah, I know, I know...you can appeal if they restrict you. Right [sarcasm] ).

Maybe you misunderstand. Maybe you're being thick headed. I don't know. This was never about repealing anything. This was about preventing further legislation from being enacted that further restricted our rights. We now have a base to fight from. We can move forward and begin hitting that legislation. Or, you can cry molon labe and move to new Hampshire.

 

[jasons]

I deleted some off-topic posts. Let's at least try to stay on topic. Please.

 

[sbi]

Maybe you misunderstand. Maybe you're being thick headed. I don't know. This was never about repealing anything. This was about preventing further legislation from being enacted that further restricted our rights. We now have a base to fight from. We can move forward and begin hitting that legislation. Or, you can cry molon labe and move to new Hampshire.

Do you agree that MA has "one" of the toughest gun laws in the country, that it makes it hard on people to express their rights to own a firearm?

 

[oldsoldier29]

Trying to paint me as anti gun? Please, stop. I went to the hearings. I Testified several times. I attended the rallies. I also know that this particular fight was never about rolling back current legislation. It was about preventing more. Now, we can either move forward and start dismantling the current laws, or keep screaming molon labe, then move out of state. Your choice. Me, I plan on continuing the fight here. Thanks for playing.

 

[kevin9]

From GOAL:
...

• The FID Card language no longer has "reason for issue", no more restrictions, Public Safety and the Mass. Chiefs will no longer be able to define suitability and the burden for denials of will rest squarely on the chiefs. Any reason for denials must be clearly defined and in writing and contain credible evidence. Restrictions on LTCs would also be subject to judicial review and the chief would have to provide evidence for any restrictions. The FID card and LTC laws also will use the term "prohibited person" which is the legal term we have been fighting for. There are no longer any Class B LTCs.

...

I think that is a most "optimistic" reading of the actual bill language:

Notwithstanding other provisions of paragraph (1) to the contrary, the licensing authority may deny the application or renewal of a firearm identification card, or suspend or revoke a card issued under this section, if in the reasonable exercise of discretion, the licensing authority determines that the applicant or card holder is unsuitable to be issued or to continue to hold a firearm identification card.

It is better than the original bill, but still stinks and is still a loss.

In this case I agree with the NRA-ILA instead of GOAL:

While an improvement over prior versions of this bill that would have given essentially unfettered discretion to issuing authorities to deny applicants or renewal applicants, it isn’t difficult to imagine how this provision will be abused if H.4278 becomes law. ... for the aforementioned reasons, the NRA remains opposed to this bill.

 

[Quiet]

FID requires the same amount of work and dollars as LTC, this entire Bill was a disaster. For Goal to be neutral seems to say the same as a politician saying they vote present. It does nothing to address the problem and only means young hunters etc will have more barriers NOT to get involved in the sport.

Sent from the blind

Wallace probably made a deal with people as such:
"If you make changes A,B and C, GOAL will not oppose the bill."

Consider the exact same person who seems to be going through some mental issues:

A) Family or friends notify "authorities" and they come and take him but he goes peacefully. Loses his 2A rights

B) SAME person realizes he is going nuts, and calls for the SAME help at the SAME treatment center. Doesn't lose his rights.

Just because he self-reported instead of having his mom narc on him, he's all of-a-sudden OK enough to not be reported to NICS?

Same person.

If you go peacefully and voluntarily and submit to in-patient treatment it's not confinement. Sometimes that works, sometimes they don't give you that option because you're not able to make that decision for yourself. If you fight being treated, it's involuntary.

 

[sbi]

Trying to paint me as anti gun? Please, stop. I went to the hearings. I Testified several times. I attended the rallies. I also know that this particular fight was never about rolling back current legislation. It was about preventing more. Now, we can either move forward and start dismantling the current laws, or keep screaming molon labe, then move out of state. Your choice. Me, I plan on continuing the fight here. Thanks for playing.

Was this a response to me? If so, where did you get the impression that I was trying to paint you as anti gun from?

 

[Dadstoys]

The whole right to appeal thing is a red herring in my opinion.
If it's supposed to make us feel better about the 'May issue", it shouldn't.
You could always take a denial to court.
It's meaningless without a penalty to the COP for an arbitrary denial.
Also what would the cost be now days to the person appealing?
The same COPs doing this crap today would still be doing it tomorrow.
So what if he writes "Because I said so" in the reason for denial box?
You get the privilege of dropping a couple of grand to go to court and he gets a paid court day on the taxpayers dime.
Not seeing the win part on this one.
Don't get me wrong I know it could have been worst, They went for a head shot and clipped an ear.
After this shit show is over we need an "Ok it's payback time." thread.
That's for another day.

 

[oldsoldier29]

If you weren't, then I apologize. Been a long day, tons of misinformation-many by who didn't read the bill, but rather are feeding off what others are saying.

 

[Babo]

Does GOAL have any further input or analysis to 4278, as opposed to "Neutral" before it was even debated on the house floor, now that is has had amendments added and passed the house?

Not bashing, just curious.

Very much looking forward to this, really helps with writing an informed letter/email.

My poop sandwich needs a side. What should we be concentrating and asking for?
Where are the vulnerabilities with the bill so far? What potential amendments should we be aware of so we can try to head them off?

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

I emailed mine, Jen Flanagan and told her I was very concerned about the new rules for person to person firearm sales. I stated our LTC's already constitute a "background check" so what is this fictitious website going to do? Who will design and implement it? Who will pay for it? What type of info will be stored on it and who will have access to that info?

Better than that... as an "emergency" bill, once signed, it goes into effect immediately. If that is the case, how do we do a face to face transfer in the 18+ months it will take to get a functional web site up and running?

Allow me to put on my tinfoil hat here...

What if it is never up and running? There are no penalties for failing to provide the tools we need to comply with the law. It could be a handy way to prevent non-dealer transfers.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I don't like certain aspects of this bill, but being a political realist, this is as good as we were going to get . . . and keep in mind that retirement of a couple of senior legislators who were pro-2A leaves a void that will likely be filled with anti moonbats at the next election so any bill proposed next year probably would have been terrible and no chance of stopping it . . . and the antis were not going to go away until they finally got something passed this year or next. Now legistraitors can point to this and say "see we gave you an anti-gun bill, now go away". At least this year we still had some political clout to remove some of the worst parts of the bill.

Something that really sticks in my craw is the "no guns for aliens" BS in the bill. Even after committee members were advised that the state already lost Fletcher v. Haas a few years ago. Net result will be that Comm2A could go back into USDC and have the judge hammer the state over this if they try to enforce it. Regardless it is malfeasance at its finest to put it into a new law knowing that you already lost that battle in court.

The discretionary FID may actually work out in our favor and here is why. I recall Comm2A reporting that the state claimed that denial of a LTC to someone on suitability was NOT a 2A violation since they could always obtain an FID (shall issue) and own low-cap long guns. Well H.4278 will blow that line of reasoning out of the water and I'm wondering if Comm2A can then use it to overturn the entire discretionary LTC/FID scheme in USDC as a direct violation of 2A??

 

[Len-2A Training]

Better than that... as an "emergency" bill, once signed, it goes into effect immediately. If that is the case, how do we do a face to face transfer in the 18+ months it will take to get a functional web site up and running?

Allow me to put on my tinfoil hat here...

What if it is never up and running? There are no penalties for failing to provide the tools we need to comply with the law. It could be a handy way to prevent non-dealer transfers.

Same way we dealt with buying/selling non-compliant guns (untested) before the test procedures were written and the test labs approved by EOPS. During that "dead time" it was "situation normal" and I bought several untested/unapproved handguns from dealers. Once the first list was published, they could no longer sell those same guns.

So, until the web portal is up and running you will just continue to do as we have been doing up to now wrt FTF transactions.

 

[sbi]

If you weren't, then I apologize. Been a long day, tons of misinformation-many by who didn't read the bill, but rather are feeding off what others are saying.

No need to apologize.

I admit - I didn't read the bill in its entirety, but I am familiar with the main points of the new bill that passed.
My point is - people are happy that we killed the original bill and were able to "stay alive" with a much better bill, something we can "work with".
My opinion is - there should not have been a bill, ANY bill, at all. We have enough laws that tie our hands behind our back, we have way too much freedom to CoP and AG and this new bill will continue to give CoP 'discretion' to decide if they like you or not. This is bullshit. Yes, I am aware that the new revised bill that GOAL worked on with DeLeo and Co. was not designed to reverse any of the existing unconstitutional laws, but frankly - I don't care. No new bill should have passed. You guys feel good because we were given a lifeline. I think we caved in and more shit will come our way because you know it, and we all know it, that these morons will not rest until they take our guns away. This is what gun control mean to them. Not 'safety' paragraph here or there, they don't care about it. To them, you are still a psycho, dangerous person because you want to own a gun.

That's the way I see it anyways . Not as happy as the majority here. Sure, could have been worse, but it doesn't make it any better.

 

[oldsoldier29]

The emergency preamble is so they can begin the funding for ALL the different programs they want. It's not really for the criminal part, more so to get the money ball rolling. I initially thought the same thing but looked into it, and drew that conclusion. I may be right, I may be wrong, but that's what I got from digging.

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

Same way we dealt with buying/selling non-compliant guns (untested) before the test procedures were written and the test labs approved by EOPS. During that "dead time" it was "situation normal" and I bought several untested/unapproved handguns from dealers. Once the first list was published, they could no longer sell those same guns.

So, until the web portal is up and running you will just continue to do as we have been doing up to now wrt FTF transactions.

Ah, I see...

I guess "they" are bright enough not to try testing the statute if there is no way to comply with it yet...

Given everything else I see "them" trying to do I wasn't sure.

 

[Billsail]

Something that really sticks in my craw is the "no guns for aliens" BS in the bill. Even after committee members were advised that the state already lost Fletcher v. Haas a few years ago. Net result will be that Comm2A could go back into USDC and have the judge hammer the state over this if they try to enforce it. Regardless it is malfeasance at its finest to put it into a new law knowing that you already lost that battle in court.

We may be able to get this provision amended in the senate. We need to inform them of the error.

 

[GlockJock]

this would have been a perfect bill to finally get the pepper spray issue over and done with, but both house and senate added it to their own bills for some dumb reason

"Dumb"???
These scumsucking dirtbags that hold office after being elected to REPRESENT the citizens of MA are "dumb" like foxes.

They do EVERYTHING with a purpose. A "two-letter" (or "one finger", if you prefer) purpose"

"F - U"

 

[oldsoldier29]

No need to apologize.

I admit - I didn't read the bill in its entirety, but I am familiar with the main points of the new bill that passed.
My point is - people are happy that we killed the original bill and were able to "stay alive" with a much better bill, something we can "work with".
My opinion is - there should not have been a bill, ANY bill, at all. We have enough laws that tie our hands behind our back, we have way too much freedom to CoP and AG and this new bill will continue to give CoP 'discretion' to decide if they like you or not. This is bullshit. Yes, I am aware that the new revised bill that GOAL worked on with DeLeo and Co. was not designed to reverse any of the existing unconstitutional laws, but frankly - I don't care. No new bill should have passed. You guys feel good because we were given a lifeline. I think we caved in and more shit will come our way because you know it, and we all know it, that these morons will not rest until they take our guns away. This is what gun control mean to them. Not 'safety' paragraph here or there, they don't care about it. To them, you are still a psycho, dangerous person because you want to own a gun.

That's the way I see it anyways . Not as happy as the majority here. Sure, could have been worse, but it doesn't make it any better.

True. But, the intent here was never once to repeal the current laws. It was to keep from losing our rights. We did that. We also had our voices heard, loudly, on beacon hill. I've said this elsewhere, and I'll say it here; how many wins in beacon hill can a gun owner count in the past 40 years? A man with no hands can count the times. This IS a huge win. A bill will pass, by the end of July. Speaker, president, and governor all want it. We always complain about compromises only being one way-because, until yesterday, they were. We won big time. A win we need to capitalize on, and push. Start electing more pro 2a candidates, start challenging the current laws. This bill opens those doors for us.

 

[Kurtz]

There just aren't that many people in this situation though. According to the data at http://comm2a.org/index.php/8-home/197-licensing, there are 34K FIDs and 300k LTCs. A significant number of FIDs are held by people aged 15-20. I'm guessing the the people who are eligible for an LTC but have an FID is ~10K or less.

Was there not a law before stating that you can appeal for an FID 5 years after certain offenses? Losing your LTC due to an OUI for example.

 

[Quiet]

My opinion is - there should not have been a bill, ANY bill, at all.
[snip]
You guys feel good because we were given a lifeline
[snip]
That's the way I see it anyways . Not as happy as the majority here. Sure, could have been worse, but it doesn't make it any better.

Yeah, well MY opinion is that 9/11 shouldn't have happened at all
[snip]
you guys feel good because we saved almost everybody
[snip]
That's the way I see it anyways. Not as happy as the majority here. Sure, 3,000 people could have died, but it doesn't make it any better


Oh wait... that disaster wasn't avoided. Never mind.

 

[92G]

Debating H.4121 is pointless because its over. Some of us feel "relieved" by the new bill while others of us call that "comprimising and caving in." None of this is useful to our current situation.

IMO our job is to preserve as much freedom as humanly possible. Obviously the passage of new gun legislation is no victory for the 2A community, but it also could have been so much worse.

this situation reminds me of when my white high school basketball team would play the black schools...everyone knew we would lose but if we could stay within 10 points and earn the other team's respect then it was a victory of sorts.

 

[Arto]

to keep picking it apart....
Dear Senators:

In reading through the new H4278 "Act Relative to the reduction of Gun Violence," there is another section which needs correcting:
- Section 72, which requires Suicide Prevention be included in Hunter Safety Classes and other firearms courses.

Not only is Hunter Safety Class not the appropriate place to have volunteer instructors discussing this subject, there is not enough class time to fit it in. Unless they just give us a sheet to handout, there is not enough time nor expertise for this subject to be dealt with in a serious and meaningful way.

While the Hunter Classes are required to be a minimum of 12 hours, a typical class actually runs about 16 hours. We cover not only firearms & hunting safety, but ethics, survival, wildlife ID, laws, archery, handguns, trapping, map & compass, muzzleloaders, etc.

If any additions are to be made to the Hunter Safety Program, they should be to provide funding for live-fire training, which many students request, and many other states include in their curriculum. Indeed, many clubs offer an informal opportunity for students to try shooting a gun sometime after the last class. {i.e., , we usually have our NRA Day firearms education and safety camp the week after our September course, to give the students a supervised, hands-on opportunity to shoot a variety of guns - it'll be Sept. 21st this year}


Section 72 as written should be eliminated.

Regards
Arto

 

[oldsoldier29]

Arto, good catch. I think a lot of the suicide talk should be removed. To be honest, I think it all should be and, if they're that concerned, it should be a separate bill. But, quite honestly, that's such a small piece here. They are lumping suicide in with violent crime. Then again, they lump us in with criminals. Well, they used to. We killed 4121. Is the new bill ideal? No. But, we killed 4121-which the antis were ecstatic about. Gun owners killed it. That's unprecedented here. The last time we had a victory, it was against the English.

 

[cmcgraw2]

delete

 

[Quiet]

Arto, good catch. I think a lot of the suicide talk should be removed. To be honest, I think it all should be and, if they're that concerned, it should be a separate bill. But, quite honestly, that's such a small piece here. They are lumping suicide in with violent crime. Then again, they lump us in with criminals. Well, they used to. We killed 4121. Is the new bill ideal? No. But, we killed 4121-which the antis were ecstatic about. Gun owners killed it. That's unprecedented here. The last time we had a victory, it was against the English.

Hahahaha +1
Not sure it's on par with the ouster of the British, so...
Easy there, Sam Adams... the job isn't quite finished yet. They are just over the horizon of the Habah (aka the Senate).