Ron Paul rips NRA plan

[Hiltonizer]

Yeah, because uniformly reporting mental health records is a bad thing.

The NRA-co-authored, NICS Improvement Act authorized $200 million dollars a year for five years to improve the submission of mental health records to the NICS. This latest effort is an attempt to improve that process. Can't be having that now.

Anytime the federal government gets involved in anything its a bad thing. 10th Amendment or bust. Are you so dense that you haven't put that together by now?

Fact remains that the NRA had an opportunity to speak up for individual liberty, but instead stood up for governmental solutions. We have enough government solutions on the left.

 

[ScottS]

Anytime the federal government gets involved in anything its a bad thing. 10th Amendment or bust. Are you so dense that you haven't put that together by now?

Keeping it classy. I assume you're also against the national sex-offenders database, as well.

Fact remains that the NRA had an opportunity to speak up for individual liberty, but instead stood up for governmental solutions. We have enough government solutions on the left.

Yeah, except they didn't. They proposed individualized security plans for each school, staffed by local security.

 

[Hiltonizer]

Keeping it classy. I assume you're also against the national sex-offenders database, as well.

Yes actually I am. If a sex-offender is dangerous they should be in jail... keeping an eye on them should not be up to a federal database while they roam free society. Only a moonbat would think some database keeps anyone safe. You a moonbat? I'm actually quite classy espescially when compared to you and your description of Ron Paul. I could have been a lot more honest but I just went with dense.

Yeah, except they didn't. They proposed individualized security plans for each school, staffed by local security.

And what are those schools? Government buildings full of government employees and serviced by government contractors. Private schools already have private solutions. What should have been promoted was that public schools become unencumbered... not a "here's some general guidelines on how to spend more tax dollars". Just because they plan doesn't include finer details and come down as a mandate does not mean its not a pro-government proposal.

Sounds to me like you don't have a clear understanding of what is and isn't government based on these and other responses you've outed yourself with in this thread.

 

[flintoid]

Jefferson knew enough about the politics of power to take his wins where he could and table impractical ideals for the future. Paul is no Jefferson, but he could certainly learn something from him....

In a perfect world all schools would be "private" and would provide whatever level of security was appropriate based on their individual situation. Our government forced take-over of the educational system has made that ideal into a fantasy in the near to mid term, and until that ideal becomes reality we have a practical need to protect kids in schools. Though we all hate the idea that means working within the .gov framework. We can protect our kids in school today while we work to get the .gov out of the educational system over the long term.

I'm with this post- you're introducing locally governed law enforcement into a locally governed educational system. Got a problem? Send your kids to private school where they pander to your interests better (private security, no security, whatever).

RP is barking at a rock and if he'd stop doing this shit, he'd carry more weight with it.

 

[Hiltonizer]

Jefferson knew enough about the politics of power to take his wins where he could and table impractical ideals for the future. Paul is no Jefferson, but he could certainly learn something from him....

In a perfect world all schools would be "private" and would provide whatever level of security was appropriate based on their individual situation. Our government forced take-over of the educational system has made that ideal into a fantasy in the near to mid term, and until that ideal becomes reality we have a practical need to protect kids in schools. Though we all hate the idea that means working within the .gov framework. We can protect our kids in school today while we work to get the .gov out of the educational system over the long term.

I'm with this post- you're introducing locally governed law enforcement into a locally governed educational system. Got a problem? Send your kids to private school where they pander to your interests better (private security, no security, whatever).

RP is barking at a rock and if he'd stop doing this shit, he'd carry more weight with it.

More government while we phase out too much government? Got it. So logical.

How about we do nothing and let security paranoid move their kids to private schools that are secured? Oh, that'd be too simple and save tax dollars.... fauxpublicans wouldn't go for it.

We'll keep ignoring the fact that the likelihood of this happening to any given school is near nill too.

 

[flintoid]

More government while we phase out too much government? Got it. So logical.

How about we do nothing and let security paranoid move their kids to private schools that are secured? Oh, that'd be too simple and save tax dollars.... fauxpublicans wouldn't go for it.

We'll keep ignoring the fact that the likelihood of this happening to any given school is near nill too.

I'm just not digging the alienation of the general public who is blood thirsty for action right now. Everyone is still in "react mode" and this is when you decide to run your mouth about this? When was this logical, since you're so into it. Got it?

 

[KBCraig]

Yeah, because uniformly reporting mental health records is a bad thing.

No, because any reporting of mental health records, or any other health records, to a national database is a bad thing.

The NRA-co-authored, NICS Improvement Act . . .

You are really not helping the NRA's case here.

 

[KBCraig]

I'm just not digging the alienation of the general public who is blood thirsty for action right now. Everyone is still in "react mode" and this is when you decide to run your mouth about this? When was this logical, since you're so into it. Got it?

If your daily social interactions are such that you believe the the general public is "bloodthirsty for action right now", either you live in Moonbatistan, or you need to seriously rethink your family and friends.

Yes, there are moonbats who do crazy things like scream at strangers and beat on their cars if they have NRA stickers, but those people are always bloodthirsty for action. To the degree the general public could be whipped up by the major media at all, the outrage peaked sometime between Friday morning when the shootings happened, and Monday/Tuesday when the funerals started.

After that, the gun-banning hystericals were only preaching to their own small choir.

 

[jasons]

More government while we phase out too much government? Got it. So logical.

How about we do nothing and let security paranoid move their kids to private schools that are secured? Oh, that'd be too simple and save tax dollars.... fauxpublicans wouldn't go for it.

We'll keep ignoring the fact that the likelihood of this happening to any given school is near nill too.

The NRA is a private non-government org funded by private money. How is them working with schools on a volunteer basis to help with security planning and training "more government?" It's not - it's simply working inside the existing framework, which granted is currently mostly government controlled, in order to provide a service that can help now while we continue to work towards the ideal.

If wanting to have someone armed and trained in active shooter response around is "paranoid" then I guess I'm paranoid. I guess all if us who carry and train for the unlikely but horrible are as well.

 

[mikem317]

The NRA is a private non-government org funded by private money. How is them working with schools on a volunteer basis to help with security planning and training "more government?"

If wanting to have someone armed and trained in active shooter response around is "paranoid" then I guess I'm paranoid. I guess all if us who carry and train for the unlikely but horrible are as well.

Maybe because some of us fear that it's going to translate into the "TSA for Schools" or something to that effect. Look, the solution here is not a complex one: Allow peaceable, responsible citizens, e.g. those with LTCs, P&Rs, etc. to lawfully carry onto school grounds. You don't have to force principals, teachers or staff to conceal. I'm sure a good chunk of them probably already carry off-campus.

By ending the GFZs, this sends a clear message to would-be assailants: School children are no longer "easy" kills.

 

[jasons]

Maybe because some of us fear that it's going to translate into the "TSA for Schools" or something to that effect.

Which is what you'll get if you let the .gov do it. What the NRA is proposing is a locally defined plan and strategy tailored to each school's unique circumstances an supported by efforts from local volunteers. Doesn't sound much like the TSA, does it?

 

[flintoid]

If your daily social interactions are such that you believe the the general public is "bloodthirsty for action right now", either you live in Moonbatistan, or you need to seriously rethink your family and friends.

Yes, there are moonbats who do crazy things like scream at strangers and beat on their cars if they have NRA stickers, but those people are always bloodthirsty for action. To the degree the general public could be whipped up by the major media at all, the outrage peaked sometime between Friday morning when the shootings happened, and Monday/Tuesday when the funerals started.

After that, the gun-banning hystericals were only preaching to their own small choir.

have you been outside of your house? Or your corner of New Hampshire? Because it doesn't sound like you have.

I have talked to plenty of casual 2A supporters... strangers to me.... who believe in some sort of action right now. If you honestly don't think that the death of children doesn't outrage a good portion of the general public into reactionary thinking, you are either naive or dense as ****.

Sorry man. Just because your tiny little corner of the world is rational doesn't mean that John Q Public is. Get a grip.

and your tiny little faction isn't going to get RP elected. So stop living in a closed box. It's not doing us any favors except making you look like an arrogant prick.

 

[bfm]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-narcissus-in-all-us/200903/mass-murder-is-nothing-fear

 

[drgrant]

Having a police officer, or hired guard or civilian volunteer with a weapon does not equal useless TSA rape and security theater.

In no where in the NRA's speech (Who I generally do not support) did they say that they want a TSA style search bullshit setup at school. The NRA more or less said they want someone in the area who can throw bullets back at idiots who wish to do harm.

In the grand scheme of numbers, school shootings are not statistically significant, same with "terrorism" here in the US. But, the school should be allowed to legally be able to post people on its grounds who carry firearms if it decides to.

I'm not sure what part of the NRA's response that Ron Paul is responding to. I dispise the TSA, and I didnt get the security theatre vibe out of the initial NRA press conference.

My bet is RP's concerne is that authorities would take their suggestion and basically go full retard with it. Instead of simply throwing a LEO or two in every school, some areas would go full retard on the idea and use it as an invitation to add metal detectors, etc, etc, ad nauseam. I don't think his fears are entirely unwarranted, but on the other hand many public schools are already like prisons, minus the actual hard security of a real prison.

-Mike

 

[jasons]

The way I see it we have three choices here:

1. Do nothing. Not going to happen - the public will force something, and frankly there are some changes that would make sense. (Like get rid of laws that preclude carry by responsible gun-owners in schools.)
2. Try to get in front of the changes in an attempt to prevent them from going full-retard. This is what the NRA is trying to do.
3. Sit back and let the government figure it out. (Look at the TSA to see where that will go.)

I know where I stand.

 

[Hiltonizer]

The NRA is a private non-government org funded by private money. How is them working with schools on a volunteer basis to help with security planning and training "more government?" It's not - it's simply working inside the existing framework, which granted is currently mostly government controlled, in order to provide a service that can help now while we continue to work towards the ideal.

If wanting to have someone armed and trained in active shooter response around is "paranoid" then I guess I'm paranoid. I guess all if us who carry and train for the unlikely but horrible are as well.

Regardless of whether or not the NRA is private, the schools are public. This will cost more tax dollars somewhere. If you want to make the case that it will cost less than alternatives, fine but I still don't buy it. This proposal does nothing to promote citizen carry and free security. It will result in LEO's getting insane overtime, it will result in private security getting tax money. If you think otherwise you're delusional.

have you been outside of your house? Or your corner of New Hampshire? Because it doesn't sound like you have.

I have talked to plenty of casual 2A supporters... strangers to me.... who believe in some sort of action right now. If you honestly don't think that the death of children doesn't outrage a good portion of the general public into reactionary thinking, you are either naive or dense as ****.

Sorry man. Just because your tiny little corner of the world is rational doesn't mean that John Q Public is. Get a grip.

and your tiny little faction isn't going to get RP elected. So stop living in a closed box. It's not doing us any favors except making you look like an arrogant prick.

I won't deny that they want action.... hopefully they want all the way into private school. Screw'em. Just because a majority of sheep want something doesn't mean we should be in favor of it.

People need to stop getting what they want for a change at the tax payers expense.

 

[jasons]

Regardless of whether or not the NRA is private, the schools are public. This will cost more tax dollars somewhere. If you want to make the case that it will cost less than alternatives, fine but I still don't buy it. This proposal does nothing to promote citizen carry and free security. It will result in LEO's getting insane overtime, it will result in private security getting tax money. If you think otherwise you're delusional.

Yes, the schools are public and that is a problem. It's also reality. What are you proposing then? Do nothing? Sit back and let the .gov figure it out?

People need to stop getting what they want for a change at the tax payers expense.

That's a good long-term goal. It's utterly irrelevant in the short term.

 

[DrRansom]

Yes, the schools are public and that is a problem. It's also reality. What are you proposing then? Do nothing? Sit back and let the .gov figure it out?

Um, don't you kind of have to sit back and let .gov figure it out? It's not like anyone can do anything without their ok, as it is public domain? It seems like your plan of #2 above actually just consists of telling everyone we should do #2 but really doing #1 and #3 since we have no say there...

 

[Hiltonizer]

Yes, the schools are public and that is a problem. It's also reality. What are you proposing then? Do nothing? Sit back and let the .gov figure it out?

They should have changed the conversation to allowing carry in schools. I'd rather a media shit storm over that versus what they did.

Regardless of the nuance in the security guards they proposed, the term security guard will be taken and run with, now we have a disaster where even fiscal conservatives think this is acceptable. We just grew the public school system instead of taking a shot at it shrinking.

 

[jasons]

They should have changed the conversation to allowing carry in schools. I'd rather a media shit storm over that versus what they did.

Regardless of the nuance in the security guards they proposed, the term security guard will be taken and run with, now we have a disaster where even fiscal conservatives think this is acceptable. We just grew the public school system instead of taking a shot at it shrinking.

Well, basically that's what they're saying. Give volunteers the active shooter response training that they need and allow them to carry in schools as part of a locally designed and staffed security plan.

I really think we must be reading a different speech. Maybe if you quote the part that your reading that calls for some new large .gov program I could better understand your argument.

 

[jasons]

Um, don't you kind of have to sit back and let .gov figure it out? It's not like anyone can do anything without their ok, as it is public domain? It seems like your plan of #2 above actually just consists of telling everyone we should do #2 but really doing #1 and #3 since we have no say there...

Have you ever sat on a school board? If not, you might be surprised at the level of autonomy that local schools have.

 

[drgrant]

I guess one thing in support of the NRAs argument is that even if it results in nothing happening it is like throwing carrots at the antis in an attempt to distract them until the mental retardation factor dies down considerably.

Where's a good earthquake or salacious political scandal when you need one?

Then again children's body parts are probably being fed into artillery pieces in Syria and used as ammunition, and nobody gives a shit, so distracting a bunch of arm-flapping, knee jerk reactionaries is probably a daunting task at this rate. Even the porkchop sandwiches guy is calmer than a lot of this crap I'm hearing.

-Mike

 

[DrRansom]

Have you ever sat on a school board? If not, you might be surprised at the level of autonomy that local schools have.

I have not, and I'm not privy to their level of autonomy. I'm not actually disagreeing with your approach, just commenting that it does seem very hard to convince any school board to let such a plan be implemented.

 

[Hiltonizer]

From armed security to building design and access control to information technology to student and teacher training, this multi-faceted program will be developed by the very best experts in their fields.

All fairly vague... from Wayne's speach...

Asa's wasn't much better:

Armed, trained, qualified school security personnel will be one element of that plan, but by no means the only
element.

"school security personnel" would seem to imply to me employees specifically there for security purposes. Were it worded "School personell Armed, trained, qualified in security" that'd be a whole other thing.

Even if that's not what they meant, that's what everyone is talking about.

- - - Updated - - -

Have you ever sat on a school board? If not, you might be surprised at the level of autonomy that local schools have.

Can't wait too, just need the time. I want to drive the school system into the ground.

 

[jasons]

I have not, and I'm not privy to their level of autonomy. I'm not actually disagreeing with your approach, just commenting that it does seem very hard to convince any school board to let such a plan be implemented.

In MA, yes. In places that haven't already gone full retard, not so much.

For the record, I haven't either but my wife has and we both stay as involved as possible in what goes on. I'll do whatever I can to encourage them to talk to the NRA about training and security planning. This is a private school, not that it really makes a difference.

 

[DrRansom]

In MA, yes. In places that haven't already gone full retard, not so much.

For the record, I haven't either but my wife has and we both stay as involved as possible in what goes on. I'll do whatever I can to encourage them to talk to the NRA about training and security planning. This is a private school, not that it really makes a difference.

That's the real problem, though, right? You would think that there would be something that people could do to help, even if they're not on school boards (mine are too young yet to even be in school). But any course of action to help our cause is very blurry. I don't know that I'd know where start.

 

[jasons]

That's the real problem, though, right? You would think that there would be something that people could do to help, even if they're not on school boards (mine are too young yet to even be in school). But any course of action to help our cause is very blurry. I don't know that I'd know where start.

The NRA does and has already started.

 

[In God We Trust]

While I was pleasantly surprised by the NRA's statement, I wish the NRA statement had been more like this:

"God bless the families of the victims. You are all in our thoughts and prayers. Thats all we have to say since a madman with an illegally possesed weapon is not reflective of our membership or organization. If you are looking for a way to protect schools from maniacs, we wish you nothing but success in your endeavors, but this is not the mission or area of expertise for the NRA. We will continue to fight against any infringements upon the second ammendment as always."

 

[DrRansom]

The NRA does and has already started.

So the only thing that I can do to help is give them money?

 

[jasons]

So the only thing that I can do to help is give them money?

Or volunteer.