Riddle me this... .458 SOCOM

[76Too]

Here's one that ought to grind some gears in your brain housing groups...

If a '30 round' AR magazine only holds 10 rounds of 458 SOCOM, does that make it 'MA Compliant'?

Try not to let your head explode thinking about this one.

I think I just decided that I 'need' a .458 SOCOM upper at some point. Because why the hell not? Really...that's the point of this post...why the hell not? Anyone have any experience with the caliber and have some value to add to the conversation that doesn't include dick pics or slander?

 

[FPrice]

I would say "A Big Fat NO!".

Just because it can only hold 10 rounds of .458 doesn't mean that it can't hold more than 10 rounds of .556.

 

[Penniepup1]

Maura ain’t gonna like your stinkin’ thinkin!’

 

[kalash]

Want your head to explore? A Mossberg 500 holds ~10 mini-shells, making its magazine tube an illegal high capacity feeding device.

 

[Mountain]

IIRC, someone makes a follower that holds the .458 SOCOM rounds in the middle, and therefore wouldn't work with 5.56/.223 ammo. Get the floor plate engraved '.458 SOCOM - 10 rounds' if you like. I may do this eventually, but for now just use my ugly ass pre-ban mags.

But wait! Here it is: 458 SOCOM Magazine Follower (USGI)

Not compatible with Magpul mags, but I think Magpul is on the NES boycott list.

And yes, you NEED one of these uppers. Absolutely stupid good fun. Do they have plates at your club? Invite me and the 'Thud Gun' .

 

[76Too]

458 SOCOM Magazine Follower (USGI)

Not compatible with Magpul mags, but I think Magpul is on the NES boycott list.

And yes, you NEED one of these uppers. Absolutely stupid good fun. Do they have plates at your club? Invite me and the 'Thud Gun' .

PERFECT!

And if anyone followed the NES boycott list, there wouldn't be any companies left to buy from.

 

[CrackPot]

Want your head to explore? A Mossberg 500 holds ~10 mini-shells, making its magazine tube an illegal high capacity feeding device.

Yes, but...

Since it is operating by pump action it is still not a large capacity weapon. Yes, it has a large capacity feeding device as part of the weapon, but is nota LCW so not illegal.

 

[Nick Leduc]

I went the cheap route with my 458 and ordered a Radical Firearms upper. As with any of Radical stuff, I have been pleased knowing what I paid for the item. I was expecting more recoil, but didnt find it that bad at all.

 

[whatluck]

How about this one.

If you have a semiauto MG42, and a very obviously pre-ban linked belt of ammo, you have a pre-ban large cap feeding device.

What happens when I remove round #50 from a 100 round belt? Have not I just manufactured 2 high hap feeding devices? What if I fire 1 round and make a 99-round feeding device?

What about the links that fall to the ground? Are the links also not a feeding device? Can the belt go from being a legal feeding device, but when the links disintegrate are they a felony? Would disintegrating a legal 100-round belt then be 100 felonies?

Protip: Don't ever try to apply logic to liberal laws.

 

[whatluck]

Here's one that ought to grind some gears in your brain housing groups...

If a '30 round' AR magazine only holds 10 rounds of 458 SOCOM, does that make it 'MA Compliant'?

Try not to let your head explode thinking about this one.

I think I just decided that I 'need' a .458 SOCOM upper at some point. Because why the hell not? Really...that's the point of this post...why the hell not? Anyone have any experience with the caliber and have some value to add to the conversation that doesn't include dick pics or slander?

If it's a .458 mag then it's not high cap. It holds less than 10 rounds. I could cram 20 rounds of .22 into a 10 round 45ACP P227 mag. Does that make it high cap?

 

[kalash]

Yes, but...

Since it is operating by pump action it is still not a large capacity weapon. Yes, it has a large capacity feeding device as part of the weapon, but is nota LCW so not illegal.

The gun itself might be legal because of it's action but the LCFD itself is illegal. Look at it this way, if you get the Troy pump-action AR, you still can't legally have pmags.

 

[CrackPot]

The gun itself might be legal because of it's action but the LCFD itself is illegal. Look at it this way, if you get the Troy pump-action AR, you still can't legally have pmags.

Correct. The pmag stands alone as a hicap object and is illegal. The fixed tube hicap on a pump action shotgun though is fine. The definitions in 140 121 just hurt my head sometimes.

Now if you converted the pump action ar to fixed magazine the way the definitions are written I think the pmag on the rifle works. Ponder that...

 

[amm5061]

IIRC, someone makes a follower that holds the .458 SOCOM rounds in the middle, and therefore wouldn't work with 5.56/.223 ammo. Get the floor plate engraved '.458 SOCOM - 10 rounds' if you like. I may do this eventually, but for now just use my ugly ass pre-ban mags.

But wait! Here it is: 458 SOCOM Magazine Follower (USGI)

Not compatible with Magpul mags, but I think Magpul is on the NES boycott list.

And yes, you NEED one of these uppers. Absolutely stupid good fun. Do they have plates at your club? Invite me and the 'Thud Gun' .

This. First, unmodified Magpul Pmags are not compatible with .458 SOCOM because there's some stupid f***ing tab in them that helps guide the follower for 5.56 or something. Standard USGI or slightly modified Lancer mags work best. Either of these can be equipped with a single stack follower and modified to make them ban-state legal 10-rounders for big-bore calibers. You won't be able to use them for .223/5.56 after the modifications though, the single stack follower would pop them right off.

I usually use my USGI pre-bans. They work just fine unmodified and I've got a bunch of them anyway. The MidwayUSA AR-Stoner brand 5.56 10-rounders work really good as well, but you can only fit 3 into them. I use those because .458 is so goddamn expensive and I'm shooting it out of a straight-pull bolt action anyway.

Tromix sells floor plates and single stack followers for both USGI and Lancer magazines. They also sell already compliant 7 and 10-round Lancers. Tromix Restricted State, Compliant Magazines - Tromix Lead Delivery Systems

And finally.... Buy the upper and join the .458 SOCOM club. It's a ton of fun!

 

[kalash]

Correct. The pmag stands alone as a hicap object and is illegal. The fixed tube hicap on a pump action shotgun though is fine. The definitions in 140 121 just hurt my head sometimes.

Now if you converted the pump action ar to fixed magazine the way the definitions are written I think the pmag on the rifle works. Ponder that...

What makes you think that?

''Large capacity feeding device'', (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells; or (ii) a large capacity ammunition feeding device as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(31) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994. The term ''large capacity feeding device'' shall not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with,.22 caliber ammunition.

 

[amm5061]

Also, link to my .458 build thread in case you're interested:

458 SOCOM Bolt Action Build

 

[CrackPot]

What makes you think that?

Read the next definition. Large capacity weapon. The pump action is excluded.

So you have a large capacity feeding device as an integral part of a non large capacity weapon. The result of this is every dealer I know will sell for example pump action shotguns with more than 5 round capacity. As usual very poorly written laws.

 

[Mountain]

Hey, you guys should really knock off the d!ck measuring contest. OP will get the wrong idea and start stalking one of you and and might send flowers to your work.

 

[Dip Dungles]

include dick pics

You got it champ!!!!!

Dick Nixon by Dip Dungles, on Flickr

 

[kalash]

Read the next definition. Large capacity weapon. The pump action is excluded.

So you have a large capacity feeding device as an integral part of a non large capacity weapon. The result of this is every dealer I know will sell for example pump action shotguns with more than 5 round capacity. As usual very poorly written laws.

Can a non-large capacity weapon still have a large capacity feeding device? MGL is clear as mud, per usual, and once again contradicts itself.

How about a Mossberg 930 then? Semi-auto, let's say without an evil pistol grip or anything. Legal or no?

 

[Dennis in MA]

Some guy was arrested recently and charged with a HCFD AND a HCF. . . . 1911 with an extended aftermarket mag. Not sure if overcharged him or if they are just being d-words. But a single-stack 1911 isn't a HCF in my book for sure.

These are laws that were written 30 years ago for a "simpler" time. Time to just repeal it as anyone who WANTS one illegally can obtain one, anyone who wants to have a substantially-similar gun can have one and we haven't had thousands of "assault weapon shootings" in MA. Or hundreds. Or tens. Heck, probably not ones of them.

 

[tuna]

This sounds like the game wardens who would jam up duck hunters by showing that even though their magazines were plugged to only accept two 3" (or 3.5", I forget which exactly) and the hunters only had the roman candle looking shells, because the gun could FIT three 2.75" shells they were in violation of the Mig Bird Act.

 

[bill o]

I would say "A Big Fat NO!".

Just because it can only hold 10 rounds of .458 doesn't mean that it can't hold more than 10 rounds of .556.

A Glock .40 10- round mag can hold >10 rounds of 9mm and usually function fine.

 

[FPrice]

A Glock .40 10- round mag can hold >10 rounds of 9mm and usually function fine.

Does not make a difference. It's a ten round Glock .40 caliber mag.

But....if Maura caught you using it this way, she'd probably slap your pee-pee anyways.

 

[1903Collector]

Want your head to explore? A Mossberg 500 holds ~10 mini-shells, making its magazine tube an illegal high capacity feeding device.

I think there is an older discussion on this very subject in the MA laws section.

 

[bill o]

Does not make a difference. It's a ten round Glock .40 caliber mag.

But....if Maura caught you using it this way, she'd probably slap your pee-pee anyways.

That’s the point. Just because you can fit 11 subcaliber rounds, that doesn’t make it a high capacity magazine. How is a mag body marked “.458 socom” any different than one marked “.40”?

 

[FPrice]

That’s the point. Just because you can fit 11 subcaliber rounds, that doesn’t make it a high capacity magazine. How is a mag body marked “.458 socom” any different than one marked “.40”?

The OP specifically used a "30 round AR mag" as his example.

 

[Noreaster]

The other problem with pmags are the plastic feed lips. On a warm day or in the sun, the pmag will let go of all the 458 rounds because the lips flexed enough to not retain the rounds.
USGI and the Lancer mags have metal feed lips - so not a problem.
My 458 upper came with a modified USGI mag, the mag is marked 458 and the feed lips are modified resulting in not holding a 5.56 round correctly.
Additional mags will be from lancer and ill put the 458 followers in.
However at the cost of rounds, i don't mind loading 3 at a time in a 10rd 5.56 mag. LOL

 

[bill o]

The OP specifically used a "30 round AR mag" as his example.

The body of which is identical to a 10-round .458 Socom mag body. Is it stamped “30 round AR” or something? I don’t see why it would be illegal to have a 10 round magazine for my hog rifle.

 

[Noreaster]

The body of which is identical to a 10-round .458 Socom mag body. Is it stamped “30 round AR” or something? I don’t see why it would be illegal to have a 10 round magazine for my hog rifle.

If you are using a magazine that is marketed as a 30 rd, 5.56/.223 magazine, that has the factory follower, and can still be used as it was built to hold 30 rounds 5.56, you are in violation, unless of course its pre 94 or whatever date.

If you were popped for it, you may have an argument that its only a 10rd magazine, if you do not own a 5.56 rifle that will accept that mag. But the law is not on your side and it would cost a lot of money to fight it in court. Ask a lawyer their opinion.

Also insert the DrGrant, Who gives a F, the law is stupid.

 

[Mountain]

The other problem with pmags are the plastic feed lips. On a warm day or in the sun, the pmag will let go of all the 458 rounds because the lips flexed enough to not retain the rounds.
USGI and the Lancer mags have metal feed lips - so not a problem.
My 458 upper came with a modified USGI mag, the mag is marked 458 and the feed lips are modified resulting in not holding a 5.56 round correctly.
Additional mags will be from lancer and ill put the 458 followers in.
However at the cost of rounds, i don't mind loading 3 at a time in a 10rd 5.56 mag. LOL

Very good point- plastic feed lips blow in hot weather. Screwed up a good score in my last CMP match when my plastic K31 clips became hot and soft, then proceeded to dump my rounds everywhere upon reload time during the rapid fire stage. I've had issues with other non-supported plastic mag lips.