Preban AR Pistol... does such a thing exist? But wait... there's more...

[Atlantis]

Is there such a thing as a preban AR pistol lower? I realize it needs to be in AW configuration pre-94 to be a AWB exempt. I also realize you can't convert a RIFLE into a pistol, regardless of manufacture date. But are there any lowers floating around that were built as a pistol back in the early 90's?

Bonus points.... is it plausible that someone out there has a homemade lower, that was finished/milled out back in the early 90's, and was built into a pistol back then, thus making it a "preban, 80%->100% lower"?

Final lighting round... is it legal to sell someone your homemade lower? I'm guessing once it became a pistol, it is forever a pistol and never again an "other"? So across state lines would need to be via an FFL? Is there any exemption for pre-ban pistols in MA in terms of the dealer list? I.e. if I can find a preban, homemade lower, for sale in another state, and an FFL willing to do that tranfser, would it be strictly speaking legal? Obviously the list issue could be as simple as just selling the stripped lower, but is that legal if it originated as an "80%"?

So many questions.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Isn't there an unbuilt lower on the XC right now???

I bought, during the first days of the mASS ban, a lower from a guy in NH. One of the last old school kitchen table dealers. Then I turned it into a rifle. LOL

 

[Atlantis]

I guess I'm really only interested in the price point of a homemade lower that may exist in other states. I would love to find one here, but I doubt it such a thing exists in MA that has already been registered and the asking price isn't $500+.

Whereas, seems to me it wouldn't be TOO hard to find an 80% turned to 100% lower that someone built years ago in another state and doesn't want anymore. Such an item would probably be pretty affordable, and might have been built into a pistol! which would allow some pretty cool AWB compliant and registered builds in a state like MA. Provided of course, that there is a legal path to bring it into the state.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Is there such a thing as a preban AR pistol lower? I realize it needs to be in AW configuration pre-94 to be a AWB exempt. I also realize you can't convert a RIFLE into a pistol, regardless of manufacture date. But are there any lowers floating around that were built as a pistol back in the early 90's?

Pistols were uncommon, but they did exist in '94. Olympic Arms, for example, made a couple such monstrosities.

Bonus points.... is it plausible that someone out there has a homemade lower, that was finished/milled out back in the early 90's, and was built into a pistol back then, thus making it a "preban, 80%->100% lower"?

Certainly possible, but probably not common enough to call "plausible."

Final lighting round... is it legal to sell someone your homemade lower? I'm guessing once it became a pistol, it is forever a pistol and never again an "other"? So across state lines would need to be via an FFL? Is there any exemption for pre-ban pistols in MA in terms of the dealer list? I.e. if I can find a preban, homemade lower, for sale in another state, and an FFL willing to do that tranfser, would it be strictly speaking legal? Obviously the list issue could be as simple as just selling the stripped lower, but is that legal if it originated as an "80%"?

A private individual cannot manufacture with the intent of selling. They can, however, manufacture and later decide to sell. How much later is, in my understanding, undefined.

 

[Atlantis]

A private individual cannot manufacture with the intent of selling. They can, however, manufacture and later decide to sell. How much later is, in my understanding, undefined.

Brilliant. So what would that sale look like? Lets say, the unicorn is out there. Pre-94, homemade, already in pistol configuration. Seller has no interest in selling the upper, they just want a shiny new aero precision lower or something. Can the stripped lower be sold FTF across state lines legally? Does it go from being a "pistol" back to an "other" once you strip it? I'm guessing since it was built into pistol config back in 1993, and is a pistol today, it needs to go through an FFL since its interstate. Can an FFL legally transfer a homemade lower that is no longer wanted?

 

[DJBrad]

Isn't there an unbuilt lower on the XC right now???

I bought, during the first days of the mASS ban, a lower from a guy in NH. One of the last old school kitchen table dealers. Then I turned it into a rifle. LOL

That’s too bad cuz if you birthed it as a pistol you could go right back to one even if you changed it into a rifle.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Brilliant. So what would that sale look like? Lets say, the unicorn is out there. Pre-94, homemade, already in pistol configuration. Seller has no interest in selling the upper, they just want a shiny new aero precision lower or something. Can the stripped lower be sold FTF across state lines legally? Does it go from being a "pistol" back to an "other" once you strip it? I'm guessing since it was built into pistol config back in 1993, and is a pistol today, it needs to go through an FFL since its interstate. Can an FFL legally transfer a homemade lower that is no longer wanted?

Only rifles and shotguns can be bought from a dealer in a state where you're not a resident. Everything else must go through an FFL in your state of residence.

Once a pistol, always a pistol. Even if it were an "other" it has to go through an FFL. If you found this unicorn, it would be shipped to an FFL here who would make the transfer. Do you have an FFL who's willing to facilitate the transfer of an AR-pattern lower without a serial number? If yes, then get on with your bad self. If no, then this thread is mooted.

A question for you - let's imagine you found this magical lower. What good is it actually?

The sole value of a "preban" lower is that it has serialization information that was submitted to the ATF upon its manufacture to prove its provenance. A home-built firearm has no such background; that's the leading reason to finish lowers: there's no paper trail. This means there's no legal distinction from one that you finished this morning. If you found yourself in the situation that someone is inspecting your firearm, you have less than nothing to hang your hat on.

 

[Atlantis]

Only rifles and shotguns can be bought from a dealer in a state where you're not a resident. Everything else must go through an FFL in your state of residence.

Once a pistol, always a pistol. Even if it were an "other" it has to go through an FFL. If you found this unicorn, it would be shipped to an FFL here who would make the transfer. Do you have an FFL who's willing to facilitate the transfer of an AR-pattern lower without a serial number? If yes, then get on with your bad self. If no, then this thread is mooted.

A question for you - let's imagine you found this magical lower. What good is it actually?

The sole value of a "preban" lower is that it has serialization information that was submitted to the ATF upon its manufacture to prove its provenance. A home-built firearm has no such background; that's the leading reason to finish lowers: there's no paper trail. This means there's no legal distinction from one that you finished this morning. If you found yourself in the situation that someone is inspecting your firearm, you have less than nothing to hang your hat on.

Well, the difference between me buying an 80% lower, finishing it, and claiming it was finished in 1993 is that I would be admitting to not registering a firearm for 27 years, since it had to be in AW configuration back in 1993 to be preban exempt. Whereas, if I fill out a 4473 through an FFL, and that FFL is down to play ball, I could always point at that 4473, and say I did it by the book. Which explains why I am just now registering my preban pistol lower that I built back up that cost me $40 to a good friend and a transfer fee. As in, my good friend that has had a preban lower he built into a pistol back in 1993 and lives in NH. Assuming I can find and befriend someone who happens to be that unicorn.

Seems like the bottom line question is, what is the legality of transferring a non serialized lower through an FFL?

 

[citoriguy]

I can’t imagine an FFL transferring a non-serialized lower. How would they record the transaction so their books were in compliance? Again, unfinished lowers were thought of to not have a paper trail, so why get an FFL involved?

Further, and this may just be me, I wouldn’t purchase someone else’s “project“ lower and trust it to be mechanically or structurally sound. You have no clue what tools that individual used, how mechanically inclined they are, where the lower came from, and what its strength/rating is. I might have a 6061 lower, but there’s nothing stopping me from advertising it as 7075. As a buyer, how do you plan on testing the veracity of that claim in the short span of a transaction? No one’s going to let you test their lower.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Zappa]

Well, the difference between me buying an 80% lower, finishing it, and claiming it was finished in 1993 is that I would be admitting to not registering a firearm for 27 years, since it had to be in AW configuration back in 1993 to be preban exempt.

It doesn't have to be registered until it's "capable of firing a shot", which it isn't until you attach a complete upper to it.
If you only finished milling and building out the lower, but never attached an upper, then it was never technically a firearm subject to registration under Mass law.

 

[Atlantis]

I can’t imagine an FFL transferring a non-serialized lower. How would they record the transaction so their books were in compliance? Again, unfinished lowers were thought of to not have a paper trail, so why get an FFL involved?

Further, and this may just be me, I wouldn’t purchase someone else’s “project“ lower and trust it to be mechanically or structurally sound. You have no clue what tools that individual used, how mechanically inclined they are, where the lower came from, and what its strength/rating is. I might have a 6061 lower, but there’s nothing stopping me from advertising it as 7075. As a buyer, how do you plan on testing the veracity of that claim in the short span of a transaction? No one’s going to let you test their lower.

Just my $0.02.

It doesn't have to be registered until it's "capable of firing a shot", which it isn't until you attach a complete upper to it.
If you only finished milling and building out the lower, but never attached an upper, then it was never technically a firearm subject to registration under Mass law.

Yeah I mean, you could always say that. But it wouldn’t be AWB exempt because it wasn’t an AW back then, you never assembled it.. right?

The goal here:
1)AWB exempt lower
2)Price point of an 80%
3)Legal to build as a pistol
4)Registered/able in MA
5)Not self incriminating

best I can tell, you can’t have all 5 if you happen to have a lower you milled out back in 1993 and never finished.

But if your friend in NH has one... that’s how you end up being good to go on 4 and 5. Hopefully your friend is being honest about it being pre94, but idk how you could ever prove it wasn’t....

 

[Radtekk]

My head hurts...

 

[Mesatchornug]

Again, it's perfectly legal to transfer an NSN receiver. Finding a dealer who wants to is another thing.

And without paperwork to prove definitively that it was manufactured before 94, you're swinging in the breeze if anyone tries to check on you.

Regardless of the state's responsibility to prove you broke the law, this is definitely a situation that will be on you. Will your friend in NH - who bothered to manufacture an unlisted firearm 26+ years ago and just now sold it to you - be willing to take the stand for you?

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

They exist and there was one posted on the forums this summer.

Rocky Mountain Arms - Patriot - AR Pistol : 920623234

Buy a Rocky Mountain Arms This was one of the two commercially available AR pistols prior to the original assault weapons ban. for sale by HawkerTexasRanger on GunsAmerica.com the best online marketplace for buying and selling semi auto pistols, firearms, accessories, and collectibles : 920623234

www.gunsamerica.com

 

[Atlantis]

Again, it's perfectly legal to transfer an NSN receiver. Finding a dealer who wants to is another thing.

And without paperwork to prove definitively that it was manufactured before 94, you're swinging in the breeze if anyone tries to check on you.

Regardless of the state's responsibility to prove you broke the law, this is definitely a situation that will be on you. Will your friend in NH - who bothered to manufacture an unlisted firearm 26+ years ago and just now sold it to you - be willing to take the stand for you?

So assuming it’s been transferred via FFL, and then your friend declines to assist you taking the stand, the burden of proof is on who? In marcupial court you’ll lose, but on appeal, it’s not federally illegal, it has a paper trail, and isn’t not PROVABLY post 94. I know, I agree, coughing up $1000 or less for a serialized PROVABLY pre ban item make way more sense. But f*** Maura and f*** this state, why not get cute with it?

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

So assuming it’s been transferred via FFL, and then your friend declines to assist you taking the stand, the burden of proof is on who? In marcupial court you’ll lose, but on appeal, it’s not federally illegal, it has a paper trail, and isn’t not PROVABLY post 94. I know, I agree, coughing up $1000 or less for a serialized PROVABLY pre ban item make way more sense. But f*** Maura and f*** this state, why not get cute with it?

You could possibly get a lower with serial number among a series which were known to have been manufactured before the ‘94 ban. This way no papertrail would be necessary. Or even a manufacturer which went out of business before the ‘94 ban would suffice.

 

[Mesatchornug]

So assuming it’s been transferred via FFL, and then your friend declines to assist you taking the stand, the burden of proof is on who? In marcupial court you’ll lose, but on appeal, it’s not federally illegal, it has a paper trail, and isn’t not PROVABLY post 94. I know, I agree, coughing up $1000 or less for a serialized PROVABLY pre ban item make way more sense. But f*** Maura and f*** this state, why not get cute with it?

Because, practically speaking, it'll be on you to prove that it's pre-94.
You're a grown up. You can take whatever risks you're comfortable with. You have all the information you need.
I've never met a lawyer who'd advise being cute, but I'm not a lawyer, so you do you, boo-boo.

 

[Mesatchornug]

And to be clear, this has less than nothing to do with the AG. You're courting actual AWB violations with 20+ years of ATF guidance. And that's assuming there are no false statement charges that show up.

If you haven't already, you might want to commit this to memory.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

 

[Mesatchornug]

You could possibly get a lower with serial number among a series which were known to have been manufactured before the ‘94 ban. This way no papertrail would be necessary. Or even a manufacturer which went out of business before the ‘94 ban would suffice.

Assuming it was previously built as a pistol...

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

Assuming it was previously built as a pistol...

Yes I completely agree and this comment was more in reference to my first post about Mountain Arms options and other known manufacturers that went the way of the do-do prior to the ‘94 ban.

 

[chris_1001]

Carbon 15 comes to mind.

 

[Atlantis]

And to be clear, this has less than nothing to do with the AG. You're courting actual AWB violations with 20+ years of ATF guidance. And that's assuming there are no false statement charges that show up.

If you haven't already, you might want to commit this to memory.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

Correct me if I’m wrong, but there are no more federal AWB violations? So it is absolutely a state level AWB question? If it’s a new build on a new lower you’re a felon. If it’s an 80% build you’re a felon. You can get cute and say “prove it’s not a pre Healy 80% that I Just finished” but that’s the same game? So you are left with needing a preban lower. In how many other states is an 80% pistol AR build good to go with the ATF? Basically all of them, considering it’s federally legal? So you are left with needing a pre-94 lower that was built as a pistol. Seems like a solveable problem.

I get your point though.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but there are no more federal AWB violations? So it is absolutely a state level AWB question? If it’s a new build on a new lower you’re a felon. If it’s an 80% build you’re a felon. You can get cute and say “prove it’s not a pre Healy 80% that I Just finished” but that’s the same game? So you are left with needing a preban lower. In how many other states is an 80% pistol AR build good to go with the ATF? Basically all of them, considering it’s federally legal? So you are left with needing a pre-94 lower that was built as a pistol. Seems like a solveable problem.

I get your point though.

You're correct that it's a state violation.
The AG shenanigans aren't real. The actual AWB is. Build a pistol over 50 oz with a removable mag and you're taking huge risks. There are 26 years of precedent guiding the actual AWB at this point.

A 4473 showing that you transferred a NSN receiver in does nothing to demonstrate that it's pre 94. An actual receiver manufactured by a real company would provide that. Otherwise you're playing games, and I won't envy your prizes.

 

[citoriguy]

Because, practically speaking, it'll be on you to prove that it's pre-94.
You're a grown up. You can take whatever risks you're comfortable with. You have all the information you need.
I've never met a lawyer who'd advise being cute, but I'm not a lawyer, so you do you, boo-boo.

You're correct that it's a state violation.
The AG shenanigans aren't real. The actual AWB is. Build a pistol over 50 oz with a removable mag and you're taking huge risks. There are 26 years of precedent guiding the actual AWB at this point.

A 4473 showing that you transferred a NSN receiver in does nothing to demonstrate that it's pre 94. An actual receiver manufactured by a real company would provide that. Otherwise you're playing games, and I won't envy your prizes.

Both of these. If your risk tolerance allows it, go for it. if you do, don’t get “cute.”

I hope you have very deep pockets or wealthy friends and family if you ever get jammed up on something like this. You will also lose (or have to transfer to a friend/family) whatever firearms you have for the duration of your legal fight, and I can’t imagine you’ll see them again.

 

[Atlantis]

Both of these. If your risk tolerance allows it, go for it. if you do, don’t get “cute.”

I hope you have very deep pockets or wealthy friends and family if you ever get jammed up on something like this. You will also lose (or have to transfer to a friend/family) whatever firearms you have for the duration of your legal fight, and I can’t imagine you’ll see them again.

Am I missing something, or would it not be prosecuted as the same violation as a non pinned stock or a bayo lug? Like I realize healey probably won’t ever prosecute but she did basically say that anyone with any post 94 AR is at risk of AWB prosecution?

You can easily prove that a bayo lug is a bayo lug. You can easily prove that a stock is/was not pinned. The state can’t (as far as I can imagine) prove that a NSN lower was finished and built post 94?

Imagine the scenario, I register the AR pistol when I build it back up in MA. To my knowledge it’s pre 94. Everything legal. Home invasion or some other justified reason I end up having to use my EDC. Cops want to confiscate/secure my firearms while investigating. It comes out that literally everything is by the book, it was self defense, I have proper storage of all firearms, etc. Only question mark is the NSN Ar pistol. Seems like even though you’d get dragged to hell and back in MA court, it simply couldn’t stick on appeal. I mean I’m not a judge or a lawyer... but isn’t the burden of proof on the state?

 

[Mesatchornug]

I mean I’m not a judge or a lawyer... but isn’t the burden of proof on the state?

Obviously not.

Yes, in theory the burden of proof is on the state. In practice, you're in front of a judge proving your innocence with the claim X told me this is older than "The Matrix" and was originally built as a pistol (which was not common at the time). When you lose, you get to spend more money and time on appeals. If you win, the state will absolutely appeal, because they're not going to let 80%s be the wallhack that circumvents every remaining AWB.

Are you trying to be that federal case? Are you already partnered with someone on the level of Alan Gura? If not, you might think about why that case isn't already being pressed...

 

[citoriguy]

As Mesatchornug points out, it’s more likely than not the State will appeal if you win your appeal, and that’s if they don’t throw a shit ton of stuff at the wall to see what sticks the first time out. Your attorney is going to have to research and contest each charge, which won’t be cheap. Then there’s the cost of your appeal, and then, if you’re victorious, the cost of a State appeal.

IANAL, but it’s my understanding that taking a plea bargain generally forfeits your right to appeal. Again, it’s your life, your money, and your family that has to watch you go through your crusade against the State.

I don’t agree with many of the laws on the books here in MA, a let alone firearms regulations, but they have home-field advantage so I have to play by their rules. My risk tolerance is markedly different than yours, apparently.

 

[Atlantis]

Are you trying to be that federal case? Are you already partnered with someone on the level of Alan Gura? If not, you might think about why that case isn't already being pressed...

Not the core motivation. I really just want a full featured AR pistol at the same price that I couldn’t have it in a free state. I also don’t want to have to move away from my family because of something bullchit laws. Furthermore, I have no intention of committing any crime and have no reason to initiate drawing attention to myself. If that ended up going sideways and the state tried to hang me out to dry, my intention is not to be “that case” but I sure think it might make for a good candidate.

The sad thing is I don’t deny how right you and everyone else are. In the short term, paying for a serialized preban pistol lower is definitely the safe bet.

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

The sad thing is I don’t deny how right you and everyone else are. In the short term, paying for a serialized preban pistol lower is definitely the safe bet.

I recommend going on GB or Armslist and calling around places out of state. Things will be dry here in Mass. Since other states can have new AR pistols, only mainly collectors and dealers will have use for preban AR pistols and you will most likely be able to find one no problem. They pop up here once in a blue moon but they get popped quickly.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I really just want a full featured AR pistol at the same price that I couldn’t have it in a free state.

There's a club for that: it's called everybody; we meet on NES.

What you've described is not how markets work. Our market in MA is not "free" - it has external constraints that artificially shift the supply-demand curve. Many of us would love to have AR-pistols at free-state prices; if what you're describing were viable, there would be tons of them in this state. You'll note that instead people are running fixed mags or moving out of state. Some are probably making other decisions for themselves, and many aren't talking publicly about those decisions.