Pre-Ban Mags P99

[goodoldxelos]

I have 2 preban P99 9mm 16rd mags, there is no markings on them other than Meggar, the patent number, walther markings, 9mm marking. I don't use them unless its for target shooting but i would like to carry them (i carry a 10 rounder). Has anyone heard anything of someone having problems with carrying a mag thats large capacity.

Don't know if this helps but say by chance the police officer took my firearm...
Would this information help me?
Patent number: 5386657
Filing date: Jul 19, 1993
Issue date: Feb 7, 1995

-Thanks

 

[jdubois]

You don't say what state you're in. That makes a big difference. But I'm thinking if the patent was issued in '95, then a mag marked with that patent number is probably post-ban. If you're in a free state, that doesn't really much matter. If you are in MA (and a few other states) you are currently committing a felony by possessing them.

 

[FunYun]

Well, the onus is on the cops to prove its a post-ban hi-cap. There are pre-ban P99 mags, so unless there are glaring physical differences between pre and post ban mags, there is not much of a chance of getting prosecuted.

I believe you can also modify beretta mags to work, much cheaper and easier to find than pre-ban P99 mags.

 

[jdubois]

Well, the onus is on the cops to prove its a post-ban hi-cap. There are pre-ban P99 mags, so unless there are glaring physical differences between pre and post ban mags, there is not much of a chance of getting prosecuted.

No, the onus of proof is on the prosecutor, not the cops. The cops only need probable cause to arrest you. Sure, the chances of getting arrested for having a post-ban large capacity feeding device is probably small, but that doesn't make it non-existent. And even if you're not convicted, the arrest alone will likely cause you problems in the future. So, personally, I'd rather not own mags that are questionable. I suppose it's all about personal risk tolerance, though.

 

[FunYun]

Well, the conversation wasn't about whether you could be arrested or not. A cop can arrest you for any reason they choose, you may beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.

As to an arrest without prosecution being detrimental to your license? If your dealing with that kind of CLEO, you already dealing with someone who is actively working against you. If such a non-incident like this will make a CLEO reject you, he was very likely not going to give you the LTC in the first place.


As to the OP and problems with hi-caps, I have never heard of anyone getting busted for just mags. It's always been tagged on to a long list of crimes. I think the biggest problem for cops with hi-cap mags is unless the mag actually says restricted on it, very few cops will be able to tell on the spot if it is legal or not. Compound that with the many mags that have no discernible difference between pre and post-ban, and the cop is going to have a very hard time articulating why he thinks its illegal.

 

[jdubois]

Well, the conversation wasn't about whether you could be arrested or not.

The conversation was whether the OP would have trouble with the cops for carrying a large capacity feeding device. You then said the cops had to "prove" the magazine was illegal, which I called you out on. In response you are trying to say we weren't talking about being arrested. That means you consider only a conviction to be 'trouble'. I disagree. To me, an arrest is also 'trouble'. Besides the headache of being arrested in general, your argument that any CLEO who would deny an LTC for somebody with an arrest record would also just flat out deny an LTC to anybody, I find unsupportable.

 

[goodoldxelos]

Im from MA by the way, thanks alot guys for the information, ill probably just stick to the 10rd mag i carry but it feels pointless when i could just carry a 16rder. From what it seems all post-ban P99 mags were 15rders. Their is no LE only, or Law Enforcement stampings on them.

So the bottom-line here is im safe to carry them from prosecution and a rap, but i could potentionally be arrested for it if the LEO is not having a good day?

 

[jdubois]

So the bottom-line here is im safe to carry them from prosecution and a rap, but i could potentionally be arrested for it if the LEO is not having a good day?

I think the bottom line is there's almost no chance any LEO would randomly arrest you for it. But it sounds to me like they're post-ban (at least enough that I'd make double sure I knew they weren't) so you could easily get prosecuted for it if caught. The greatest risk would be if you got arrested for some other firearm offense or you actually had to use your firearm in defense, and somebody subsequently got overly nosy.

Also keep in mind, it's not just carrying one that's a crime, it's possessing one at all. So if that nosy person, say, found one in your house, you'd be just as guilty as if you were carrying with it.

 

[Xak]

I have the P99 as well, and have 2 hi cap mags for it that came with the firearm. They look pre-ban to me. There are no dates on them, however these type of mags were available before the ban, so it may be possible they are post ban and I was only told they were pre-ban. They are the exact same design and probably made in the same place and have absolutely no physical differences from their (post-ban I think) brothers. I don't care how nosy someone is, you can't change that fact.

If someone is going to venture down that path I would imagine you must have done something bad and this would be the least of your worries. You could always carry the 10 rounders. Would suck (though highly unlikely) if you needed 12 bullets in a pinch, though.

I'm trying to find out if Walther ever produced 20 round mags for the P99 pre-ban. There are some nice factory 20 rounders available. Don't know when they were produced as there are no dates on them, but I would love a couple for the range and for SHTF type stuff.

 

[jdubois]

absolutely no physical differences from their (post-ban I think) brothers. I don't care how nosy someone is, you can't change that fact.

If the patent number that is stamped on the mags is from a patent that was issued in '95, how could they have been made before Sept '94?

 

[Xak]

Oh, I didn't see this whole patent number thing. Sorry, I should have read the post better. I'll have to check my mags now. I hate this state.

I was told the 15 round mags were made for a contract with Turkey. Don't know when that was, though. Most likely post ban I would imagine.

Where can I get info on all these patent numbers, and what types of mags were made pre-ban by Walther?

So pretty soon all the "hi-caps" are gonna dry up, and no-one in MA will have full capacity mags except the police. That was their plan, huh? Will this ever get turned around?

Is there a source where MA residents can purchase pre-ban mags?

 

[john m]

It's crazy that people with LTC can't carry large cap. mags, But if your a criminal you can go to a free state and buy ammo and high cap mag if you are 18 years old. I know It's amazes me about MA. silly laws.I know this belongs in another thead,I just wanted to chime in.John

 

[Xak]

OK, how is it possible this person can sell these as pre-ban mags then. Is he lying? The same patent # is on them:

http://outfitterz.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=91606789

What numbers are on actual pre-bans?



A ...friend of mine... has P99 factory mags with holes on the left side @ 8 and 12 rounds and holes on the right side @ 5, 10, and 15 rounds. Originally they were 15 round mags, but one had a faulty spring, so because they are the same dimensions as factory 16 round mags, with the new springs they are 16 round mags. They are made by Mec-Gar, same patent number (5,386,657). Is my friend now a felon?

How do I get my hands on some pre-bans (if these are not) so my friend is compliant with the law?

 

[jdubois]

OK, how is it possible this person can sell these as pre-ban mags then. Is he lying? The same patent # is on them

Please note that the patent number issue that I brought up is based on the OP's information of the date the patent was issued. I didn't verify that information. I have no other knowledge that there weren't any pre-ban mags with that patent number on them. Somebody would have to research the issue further to be sure.

[Time Passes]

Here is the patent. Now I'm no patent expert, but I believe the patent number is assigned on the date the patent is issued. That was February 7, 1995. So unless there was some way for the manufacturer to know the patent number before it was issued, those mags are provably post-ban.

 

[goodoldxelos]

Patent number: 5386657
Filing date: Jul 19, 1993
Issue date: Feb 7, 1995
Inventor: Edoardo Racheli
Assignee: MEC-GAR S.r.l.

Well the patent was filed in 1993 so they could of been producing before 93' and filed the patent in 93'. I think the company can to produce before even filing then they probably start selling after they file the patent. Maybe Racheli had patents with european nations...?

 

[vellnueve]

Many companies begin building before the patent is awarded. That's why you see a lot of products with "Pat. Pending" on them.

However, Wikipedia's entry says the P99 design work was started in 93-94 and production didn't begin til 97. I'd do more research on it if I were you.

 

[goodoldxelos]

Many companies begin building before the patent is awarded. That's why you see a lot of products with "Pat. Pending" on them.

However, Wikipedia's entry says the P99 design work was started in 93-94 and production didn't begin til 97. I'd do more research on it if I were you.

I've read that production started in Jan of 94 on other posts but i sent Meggar an email regarding the mags.

 

[jdubois]

Well the patent was filed in 1993 so they could of been producing before 93' and filed the patent in 93'. I think the company can to produce before even filing then they probably start selling after they file the patent. Maybe Racheli had patents with european nations...?

Sure, they can start manufacturing any time they want. But my point was that the patent number isn't actually assigned until the patent is issued, afaik. So unless the company is psychic, there's no way they could stamp the patent number on the mag before the patent is issued. That was in '95.

 

[hillman]

Well, the onus is on the cops to prove its a post-ban hi-cap. There are pre-ban P99 mags, so unless there are glaring physical differences between pre and post ban mags, there is not much of a chance of getting prosecuted.

I believe you can also modify beretta mags to work, much cheaper and easier to find than pre-ban P99 mags.

What do you have to do to a beretta mag to make it work? Which beretta mags? I just picked up two completely unmarked 15rnd mags for a SW99, no markings inside or out that I can find. One protrudes slightly from the bottom of the grip, as if it weren't really meant for that gun. I was told both were pre-ban by the seller, but absolutely no way to check that I can find.

 

[vellnueve]

What do you have to do to a beretta mag to make it work? Which beretta mags? I just picked up two completely unmarked 15rnd mags for a SW99, no markings inside or out that I can find. One protrudes slightly from the bottom of the grip, as if it weren't really meant for that gun. I was told both were pre-ban by the seller, but absolutely no way to check that I can find.

Actually, the SW99 came out a few years after the P99, and there were compatability issues between the two and their mags early on.

 

[Xak]

What do you have to do to a beretta mag to make it work? Which beretta mags? I just picked up two completely unmarked 15rnd mags for a SW99, no markings inside or out that I can find. One protrudes slightly from the bottom of the grip, as if it weren't really meant for that gun. I was told both were pre-ban by the seller, but absolutely no way to check that I can find.

I would be interested in this as well. Is it the same for the P99 in .40 with Beretta mags as well?