Pics of ATF Gun Room.

[Maj. Boom Boom]

If these are the ones they kept, imagine what they've already crushed and melted!

i don't want to, OK, i just don't

 

[BigMike]

If the government is really that hard up for money, I see a couple hundred grand right there. A piss in the ocean, but every little bit counts

 

[GSG]

Granted, some of the guns are probably from bad people, etc, but I'd also bet a lot of them are surrendered or stolen property that "didn't have papers" on it. I have no doubt a lot of those guns are war bringbacks and the like that just never got registered properly, etc, and eventually BATFE got to steal them under color of law.

So here's a question. If someone brought back a gun and it entered the US legal gun market (trade in at a gunstore, Gunbroker, etc.), and you bought it, then a few years later someone stole the gun out of your house and used it in a crime or something similar, and the cops came across it and did the whole ATF guntrace thing. If they found that it was an otherwise legal pistol (something common, just not imported correctly or whatever), then would it be taken away? Does anyone know how that's handled?

I know a cop in Mass. who caught a homie with no LTC and a 9mm pistol in his pants, and when it was run through ATF they found it had never legally entered the US, but it makes me wonder, because it's entirely possible that the owner wouldn't know.

 

[drgrant]

So here's a question. If someone brought back a gun and it entered the US legal gun market (trade in at a gunstore, Gunbroker, etc.), and you bought it, then a few years later someone stole the gun out of your house and used it in a crime or something similar, and the cops came across it and did the whole ATF guntrace thing. If they found that it was an otherwise legal pistol (something common, just not imported correctly or whatever), then would it be taken away? Does anyone know how that's handled?

I know a cop in Mass. who caught a homie with no LTC and a 9mm pistol in his pants, and when it was run through ATF they found it had never legally entered the US, but it makes me wonder, because it's entirely possible that the owner wouldn't know.

This is a very good question. Honestly, I don't know. Here's some rampant speculation on my part...

My guess would be that it has something to do with the context of the confiscation.

For example, if a PD finds what they believe to be a bunch of stolen property (lets say a box of handguns) they might not trace each and every gun in the box because the paperwork would be absurd, but they might run every serial number through one of the stolen property databases (I think NCIC has some kind of database this can be done through) and then the gun might find its way back to the owner that way. Some gun friendly PDs actually try to get guns back to their lawful owners if they don't believe the gun has been actually used in a crime. (Anti PDs and states usually just destroy everything after they're done with it. )

On the other hand, if the gun is found, and then a BATFE trace conducted on it fails, then anything could happen.

If it fails at the manufacturer/import level this could mean a few things....

-Manufacturer or importer doesn't exist anymore, or BATFEs records on that entity are spotty
-Gun is simply too old to be traced (Pre GCA68?)
-Someone MADE the gun on their own. (EG, using an 80% receiver). Traces on these guns would fail instantaneously because they have nowhere to "start. "

One thing that isn't clear to me is how data collected on customs forms is integrated with BATFE. If customs forms are scanned in electronically, BATFE might run the serial through that database too, to see if it passed through on an individual import.

One problem with the whole "is this gun illegally imported contraband or not" question is that legally speaking, BATFE coming back and saying "We -think- the gun was illegally imported so we're going to steal it from you" might not stand any serious judicial scrutiny. That said, I'm sure when it involves "joe homie" or a gangbanger, that guy obviously
isn't getting his gun back anyways, so they can bloviate and use that as an excuse for the gun to never get released. Then you have things like defaced serial numbers, which are "bad by default" and those guns can never be legally returned, IIRC.

One potentially related thing here, is once in awhile BATFE will claim that a given NFA item, such as a machinegun, does not appear in the NFRTR. (Basically, their NFA database). One problem with this argument is the NFRTR is known to be rife with errors and literally missing guns.... reminds me a lot of the crappy FA-10 system in MA. Often times BATFE will say something like "This gun was never legally registered, even though you have a piece of paper on it with a tax stamp we don't care" and then some large court battle ensues. I remember a number of years ago some guy inherited an old registered DEWAT, and he wanted to turn it into an MG (which I believe you can do legally) and when he sent in the paperwork, BATFE tried to assert that the gun was not even a registered DEWAT. Obviously their records suck.... IIRC eventually the guy won his case against the government, but I don't want to know what it cost him. I want to say the machinegun in question was like a maxim or something of that nature. I can't find a link to the damned case now...

However, here is an interesting read on the issue.... "NFRTR is insufficient for criminal proceedings".

http://blog.princelaw.com/2008/9/24/the-nfrtr-is-insufficient-for-criminal-proceedings

-Mike

 

[GSG]

This is a very good question. Honestly, I don't know. Here's some rampant speculation on my part...

My guess would be that it has something to do with the context of the confiscation.

For example, if a PD finds what they believe to be a bunch of stolen property (lets say a box of handguns) they might not trace each and every gun in the box because the paperwork would be absurd, but they might run every serial number through one of the stolen property databases (I think NCIC has some kind of database this can be done through) and then the gun might find its way back to the owner that way. Some gun friendly PDs actually try to get guns back to their lawful owners if they don't believe the gun has been actually used in a crime. (Anti PDs and states usually just destroy everything after they're done with it. )

On the other hand, if the gun is found, and then a BATFE trace conducted on it fails, then anything could happen.

If it fails at the manufacturer/import level this could mean a few things....

-Manufacturer or importer doesn't exist anymore, or BATFEs records on that entity are spotty
-Gun is simply too old to be traced (Pre GCA68?)
-Someone MADE the gun on their own. (EG, using an 80% receiver). Traces on these guns would fail instantaneously because they have nowhere to "start. "

One thing that isn't clear to me is how data collected on customs forms is integrated with BATFE. If customs forms are scanned in electronically, BATFE might run the serial through that database too, to see if it passed through on an individual import.

One problem with the whole "is this gun illegally imported contraband or not" question is that legally speaking, BATFE coming back and saying "We -think- the gun was illegally imported so we're going to steal it from you" might not stand any serious judicial scrutiny. That said, I'm sure when it involves "joe homie" or a gangbanger, that guy obviously
isn't getting his gun back anyways, so they can bloviate and use that as an excuse for the gun to never get released. Then you have things like defaced serial numbers, which are "bad by default" and those guns can never be legally returned, IIRC.

One potentially related thing here, is once in awhile BATFE will claim that a given NFA item, such as a machinegun, does not appear in the NFRTR. (Basically, their NFA database). One problem with this argument is the NFRTR is known to be rife with errors and literally missing guns.... reminds me a lot of the crappy FA-10 system in MA. Often times BATFE will say something like "This gun was never legally registered, even though you have a piece of paper on it with a tax stamp we don't care" and then some large court battle ensues. I remember a number of years ago some guy inherited an old registered DEWAT, and he wanted to turn it into an MG (which I believe you can do legally) and when he sent in the paperwork, BATFE tried to assert that the gun was not even a registered DEWAT. Obviously their records suck.... IIRC eventually the guy won his case against the government, but I don't want to know what it cost him. I want to say the machinegun in question was like a maxim or something of that nature. I can't find a link to the damned case now...

However, here is an interesting read on the issue.... "NFRTR is insufficient for criminal proceedings".

http://blog.princelaw.com/2008/9/24/the-nfrtr-is-insufficient-for-criminal-proceedings

-Mike

The biggest issue IMO is that it's like the IRS. If they think you did something wrong, they seize your assets, levy bank accounts, and they tack on fees and charges until you pay up. It reminds me of the whole "bonded firearms warehouse" in Mass., come to think of it.

It's maddening, because with that whole idea of innocent until proven guilty, if the prosecution can't bring forward evidence that a crime was committed, then they have no case. It's not so with many of these federal agencies, they can just throw charges at you and you're left selling off all your posessions to try and stay out of federal prison over some clerical error.

I was wondering about the customs/import forms too, since there's clearly more than one point of entry to the US, and if all their records are equally well maintained (tongue in cheek here) then this could cause some serious issues for the little guys.

Also, you know that if this many cases have made it out into the public eye, there's probably 5 or 10 times more than were quietly plead out or resulted in convictions by someone with a bad lawyer or no money to fight the charges.