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(8.) "Certificate of Completion of a Safety Course - Each applicant for a LTC or FID Card, except an applicant for an FID to carry mace or other chemical propellant, must successfully complete a safety course certified by the Department of State Police or in the case of an FID a course of instruction in the safe handling of firearms administered by the Division of Fisheries and Wildlife. The instructor must be certified by the Department of State Police to teach the approved course. Additionally, applicants for a LTC may be required to complete a proficiency course, depending on the applicant’s prior experience in the handling of firearms. Renewal applicants for a LTC must complete the safety course at each renewal. FID renewal applicants are not required to complete the safety course.
"Renewal applicants for a LTC must complete the safety course at each renewal."
Last time, different chief, my frined had to keep paying for and taking the course. This time, new chief - don't have his name, my friend only had to have a qualified instructor witness his shooting skill and sign off on his app. He didn't have to take the course all over again this time.
Show me a list of chiefs who have been FORCED to stop doing this by judges?
Doesn't matter; neither is legal.
Doesn't matter; neither is legal.
S
The first thing to show you is the difference between the declarative and interrogative tense.
As for the "list;" note that Brookline's petulant insistence on a "range test" was struck down by the Brookline District Court last month. This puts every other chief imposing such demands on notice (MCOPA is well aware of that decision!) and makes such demands untenable.
Untenable? One PD, one case. What is to prevent any other department from doing the same thing or something similar, or even prevent Brookline from doing attempting to impose a minor variation of the same requirement on some future applicant? That's right; as your frequently invoked line "What you tolerate, you validate; What you put up with, you deserve!" suggests, only our continual, unlimited and endless willingness and ability to pay money to lawyers does any good (and one might easily infer from the second part that's the way you think it should be). This is Massachusetts, and whatever sort of abuse CLEOs feel like inflicting on gun owners under the guise of "reasonable discretion" will in fact be tolerated and tacitly accepted by the courts. Or do you honestly believe that some future chief who does this or something similar will actually be fined, jailed or otherwise sanctioned (beyond a gentle scolding)? BTW, has anybody heard whether Kang Lu, Yat Lau or Jacqueline Scott ever got their license from the now justly and soundly chastised Brookline PD? ... Anyone? ... Bueller? ...
Ken
I am soundly chastised. Of course, we should all follow your noble example of supine obeisance and mindless whining, the One True Path to Victory and Enlightenment......
BTW, has anybody heard whether Kang Lu, Yat Lau or Jacqueline Scott ever got their license from the now justly and soundly chastised Brookline PD?
Ayone want to give me their take on this? Friend is looking into getting their LTC
http://www.pembrokepolice.org/obtainin.htm
Now I'd be happy to be shown that the abuses will simply stop, or that the courts will take real steps to stop them, but straw man arguments, ad hominum [sic] arguments and similar high school debating stunts only insult the intelligence of everyone here.
Ken
But telling them that NOT resisting the abuses doesn't insult their intelligence or integrity? What an empty argument.
[Certainly wasn't an argument that I made anywhere.]
Since you so vociferously denounce winning in court, do regale us with your litany of firearms licensing triumphs by whatever superior means you've achieved them. I'm breathless with anticipation.
[Again, I never denounced winning in court nor even even hinted at my "licensing triumphs". Did manage to see that my old anti-RKBA chief was replaced with a 100% pro one, but I guess that doesn't count, since it didn't involve litigation.]
Oh - David Bardfield DID get his LTC in an agreement the town entered into just - and I mean JUST - before I filed suit.
But that's using the courts and, as you continue to tell us, those don't count.
[Once again, you can pretend I said anything to that effect if it satisfies your ego, but everyone can see that I never did.]
That's right; as your frequently invoked line "What you tolerate, you validate; What you put up with, you deserve!" suggests, only our continual, unlimited and endless willingness and ability to pay money to lawyers does any good (and one might easily infer from the second part that's the way you think it should be). This is Massachusetts, and whatever sort of abuse CLEOs feel like inflicting on gun owners under the guise of "reasonable discretion" will in fact be tolerated and tacitly accepted by the courts.
Yes, really. Unless, as I've I've repeatedly requested, you have tales of the courts imposing some sort of real sanctions on those who abuse applicants.That's right; as your frequently invoked line "What you tolerate, you validate; What you put up with, you deserve!" suggests, only our continual, unlimited and endless willingness and ability to pay money to lawyers does any good (and one might easily infer from the second part that's the way you think it should be). This is Massachusetts, and whatever sort of abuse CLEOs feel like inflicting on gun owners under the guise of "reasonable discretion" will in fact be tolerated and tacitly accepted by the courts.
Really?
Of course you will, since, unlike the applicants who get screwed over, you get paid by your clients. Unless your well-known modesty prevents you from telling us that you handle all these cases pro bono.Meanwhile, I continue to await seeing your achievements by alternative means. In the meantime, I'll stick with mine.
Which, incidentally, just got an FID card for a client in a town we shall charitably appellate "Fishstick City," the licensing officer for which insisted he had "discretion" to deny FID cards to "unsuitable persons." This legal luminary even cited the MacNutt decision as the premise for his asinine assertion.
The court found otherwise; a copy of the judge's decision was sent to the appropriate agency, which then had the client's FID activated. Fishstick City's LO was thus required to issue it and did so.
Note the complete and utter absence of action by GOAL, state reps, local yokel politicians or servile compliance with police obstructionism in the issuance of this license.
Those looking for actual, specific results may draw their own conclusions as to efficacy of this process.
Scrivener, what is the MacNutt decision? Is there really such a thing. Karen MacNutt represented me in court to fight for my LTC A ALP, and she did great work. I'd not be surprised if some of her work set precedent. Can you fill me/us in.
Thanks
Bill
Specific results: Applicant got screwed out of thousands in legal fees; attorney got paid for his services; idiot LO laughed himself silly and looks forward to doing it all over to the next applicant who draws the black spot.
The CLEOs know they can get away with this stuff, and the town pays their court costs, so they don't care how many people threaten to take them to court. More people have to actually TAKE THEM TO COURT, to correct their actions.
Next to my Wife, Family, Country and my God, there is nothing more important to me than my right to own and carry firearms. I will not sit back and let someone push me around without a fight.
The sad part is that this "question" he asked about my right to be licensed came about very shortly after I spoke at town meeting against increasing the CLEO's educational expenses for the following budget year by $5500.
The sad part is that this "question" he asked about my right to be licensed came about very shortly after I spoke at town meeting against increasing the CLEO's educational expenses for the following budget year by $5500.