Only Restricted Class A allowed, What do I do?

[Rob Boudrie]

I do not mean you should want to get denied, I mean if you had fought this all the way from the beginning you would not get a restricted LTC in the first place nor would you get denied.

Please explain.

Do you have information on how frequently the courts have ordered the issuance of an unrestricted, rather than a restricted, LTC to an ordinary citizen without privilige, power or influence (by definition the only kind of citizen for who an appeal hearing is a relevant concept).

 

[Mikey]

Please explain.

Do you have information on how frequently the courts have ordered the issuance of an unrestricted, rather than a restricted, LTC to an ordinary citizen without privilige, power or influence (by definition the only kind of citizen for who an appeal hearing is a relevant concept).

Ummm not really sure where you are coming from but I am saying just about the same thing as LenS just said and referring to the kind of thing like post #26.

 

[peterpressure]

Here is my conundrum...

Paul's experience:

After continued frustration with the restrictions, I consulted one of the attorney's noted earlier who specialize in firearms and finally on the third renewal, using the information gained from him, I was able to get the unrestricted ALP.

Awesome, I shoudl go that route!
But wait!

Wayne's

Guys, I already have a lawyer, and paid him well to help me draft an excellent letter. Obviously, it wasn't enough

I guess after reading everyones advice, I will consult a lawyer, but I just fail to see how a lawyer can help me with an unresitricted license if there i no statute requiring the city to do such.

I am left with 2 choices:

# 1- Do nothing and get a Target and Hunting restriction
or
#2- Seek some legal advice and possibly get a Restricted Target and hunting lincense. Is the cost worth option #2?

Sure, based on principle, why not.

I am just not hopefull at all that a lawyer can help me in this situation, since it is up to the CLEO.

 

[dwarven1]

A FIREARMS lawyer - one who is skilled in negotiating the BS that the chiefs put in front of you - can help where an ordinary family law lawyer might not.

That's why we recommend specific lawyers. You may still get a neutered permit (if the CLEO is a dickhead), but you may get an ALP, too. Your call.

Why not call one of the lawyers mentioned here and talk to him? He can probably let you know if he can help once he knows what town you live in.

 

[peterpressure]

My first call shortly.

#1 GOAL, to make sure they received my membership form and dues.

#2 Discuss the situation with them and/or JCohen, DArbabi or the third name mentioned Keith.

Thanks for the help everyone. I will see how far I can take this and keep the forum updated with my progress....

 

[dwarven1]

Best of luck, peterpressure!

And don't forget to keep pressure on your legistraitors!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Ummm not really sure where you are coming from but I am saying just about the same thing as LenS just said and referring to the kind of thing like post #26.

Here is where I am coming from:

You stated that if he fought this all the way he would not have a denial or a restricted LTC. That implies that fighting it all the way would cause the PD to issue a LTC-A/unrestricted. From what I have heard, that is not always possible - however, you imply that it is. I was wondering what you know here that I don't.

 

[Mikey]

Here is where I am coming from:

You stated that if he fought this all the way he would not have a denial or a restricted LTC. That implies that fighting it all the way would cause the PD to issue a LTC-A/unrestricted. From what I have heard, that is not always possible - however, you imply that it is. I was wondering what you know here that I don't.

I did not intend to say it is 100% successful just that it is your best and sometimes only chance, my apologies.

These people have to start from the very beginning with a firearms lawyer and fight it "all the way" to the end weather that means success or failure. Any other option is excepting the title of Sheep.

 

[WayneWong]

There is no use in trying to bulldoze through with force here. The chiefs are within their rights. You can't threaten their jobs. You can't threaten them with embarrassment. There is nothing to fight. It's an anti-gun state.

This is a job for negotiation and finesse. I put the strongest package I could upfront. Maybe a call from the attorney up front would have helped. Maybe it would have got my app delayed 6 months and neutered anyways.

I don't have to do anything now other than get my permit and buy my guns. When situations arise as to whether or not I can and can't do stuff, I will contact the chief, or perhaps ask Jesse to contact the chief. It might take a year or two, but if there really is a problem for me with the license, the chief will see that I really am a careful and law biding person and I'll get it changed.

I've had bigger set backs in life. I can deal with this one. And I'd rather have my chief's support than his annoyance.

 

[FrugalFannie]

I greatly appreciate the replies from everyone...

I figured a Lawyer would be my only choice, but "Thousands of dollars" seems out of the question at the moment.

I will think about it some more, I have literally months to think about it since my interview is not for a few months then I'll wait the usual 4-8 weeks to receive my LTC.

I will keep the forum updated on my progress...

Check out the GOAL website. I thouhgt they were looking for a case liek this to take on.

 

[peterpressure]

Check out the GOAL website. I thouhgt they were looking for a case liek this to take on.

I think you are refering to the "License Renewal Delays"

http://www.goal.org/news/renewaldelays.htm

I am e-mailing staff (at) goal.org to make sure they received my membership application!

Thanks again everyone!

 

[MFP4073]

As best I can tell, your chief can require a compelling reason for All Lawful Purposes

You mean all lawful purposes like target shooting, collecting, endless types of competition, personal protection, home protection, and hunting?

Those all sound compelling to me (and all of us I am sure). It is too bad some decision makers in this state do not see these activities as compelling as well.

 

[Dick]

You mean all lawful purposes like target shooting, collecting, endless types of competition, personal protection, home protection, and hunting?

Sounds a lot like "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." As you said, too bad our government doesn't [still] recognize those as compelling reasons.

 

[Fsorrent]

Generally speaking, those guides are just that...Guides! Don't be turn off from applying just because it's stated. Often times, if you present yourself in the right mannor and jump through the hoops at exactly the right angles you could pull through. Remember, they can't tell you that you can't apply for a specific license, they can just deny it to you. Apply for an unrestricted license A for ALP. Good luck my friend.

 

[drgrant]

You have two choices:

1. Hire a lawyer and fight for your rights or

2. Deal with what the LEO gives you; you will not "change their minds".

You forgot option 3:

Move the hell out of that locality, or better yet, MA in
general! Course, I realize for homeowners this is a pain in
the ass (or nearly untenable) but if you rent, moving is probably
cheaper than trying to lawyer up. Even most of the anti towns
have green towns one town over or right next to them.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Remember, they can't tell you that you can't apply for a specific license, they can just deny it to you

That isn't true at all- Often times people put ALP on the app,
state all kinds of reasons (letter, etc) they get a call a few weeks
later, they go pick up the permit and it's restricted. Issuing a
restricted permit is NOT a statutory denial!

It's not like applying for an A and getting a denial because they
don't issue Class A's. More often than not the anti IAs will
just restrict the permit... they get off "cheaper" that way and
they know it. An outright denial is legally contestible; an
issuance of a restricted permit (at least from outward appearances)
seems to be a LOT more difficult to fight.

-Mike

 

[Fsorrent]

I wasn't referring to if they can or can't restrict your license, rather I was referring to the fact that they can't tell you what to apply for. You can apply for a machine gun license if you wanted to, doesn't mean you'll get it though.

That isn't true at all- Often times people put ALP on the app,
state all kinds of reasons (letter, etc) they get a call a few weeks
later, they go pick up the permit and it's restricted. Issuing a
restricted permit is NOT a statutory denial!

It's not like applying for an A and getting a denial because they
don't issue Class A's. More often than not the anti IAs will
just restrict the permit... they get off "cheaper" that way and
they know it. An outright denial is legally contestible; an
issuance of a restricted permit (at least from outward appearances)
seems to be a LOT more difficult to fight.

-Mike

 

[MFP4073]

Sounds a lot like "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." As you said, too bad our government doesn't [still] recognize those as compelling reasons.

Dick- you hit the nail right on the head! Life, liberty and the persuit of happiness is not something that is valued very much in our country any more. Neither is freedom, pride in the trades / manufacturing, support of our military, and pride in our FLAG and our history!

The list could go on but I will stop there so as to avoid ranting and wearing the skin off of all my fingers from typing - I need it to keep shooting ;o) .

It just makes me so angry how complacent and passive many in our nation have become and their lack of pride disgusts me.

 

[drgrant]

I wasn't referring to if they can or can't restrict your license, rather I was referring to the fact that they can't tell you what to apply for. You can apply for a machine gun license if you wanted to, doesn't mean you'll get it though.

I guess what I took issue with in your post was use of the
term "deny". Under MA law, I doubt most chiefs would
statutorily deny someone for requesting an unrestricted
license.

My point was that there is a big difference between a statutory
denial and the chief just slipping someone a restriction on the
sly. They're more likely to do that than they are to deny a license
outright.

-Mike

 

[Fsorrent]

Unfortunately Very True Indeed.

 

[peterpressure]

UPDATE!!!

With my LTC interview being less than a week away, I thought I would share my progress... Last I posted, per everyones advice I said I would:

Call.
#1 GOAL, to make sure they received my membership form and dues.

#2 Discuss the situation with them and/or a Lawyer (JCohen, DArbabi or the third name mentioned Keith.)

Talked with GOAL, they offered this advice:

We can tell you one bit of advice that may help - the licensing statute (Chapter 140 section 131 (d)) makes reference to issuing a license to a person that has "reason to fear injury to their person or property" and makes it clear that is the opposite of a license issued for use in target practice only. So if you can come up with a letter before your sit-down appointment that details why you have such a reason, it would greatly strengthen your hand, so to speak.

As I mentioned before, I am employed as an Electrical Engineer so I really have no real employment related reason. I can cite per the recommendation from the post: Tips on Applying for LTC-Important Info

* See Law Enforcement Guide to Firearms Law (8th Ed.), Glidden, Ron C., “§ 131 Notes” at Page 70 and “Frequently Asked Questions,” ¶¶ 2 through 5 at Page 218; see also the 6th Edition, Summary,” ¶ 2 - “Class B NOT Recommended,” ¶ 3 - “Restricted LTC’s,” and ¶ 5 - “All Lawful Purpose” at Page 69; “ See also the 4th Edition at pages 181-183.

as well as adding for outdoor recreational activities such as hiking, camping, cross country skiing, or similar activities. I am an avid outdoorsmen, having grown up a mile away from the Quabbin, I frequent it often.

Any more ideas?

Then I e-mailed one of the lawyers everyone mentioned, to which I had no reply. So I called on the phone another lawyer everyone recommended, he was very nice and knowledgable.

But, he advised since I have no record and have never been a defendant I had no need for a lawyer to fill out my form and sadly there is nothing I can do really since I live in an "anti-gun" town, since I will be restricted (the LEO told me so), he recommended to opt for a Sporting restriction instead of Target/Hunting, since it includes more lawfull activities.

Anyone have anymore ideas?

At this point I am more confused then when I started!! when I fill out the form: http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/chsb/frb_fid_lic_app.pdf

For "REASON (S) FOR REQUESTING THE ISSUANCE OF CARD OR LlCENSE:" Should I put "All lawful purposes" (pissing off the chief) and probably end up with a Target/Hunting restriction or just put Sporting and pray they leave that since it offers me slightly more vague restriction.

I hate to say it everyone, but the lawyer really had no ideas for how I could increase my chances for an ALP since my town is against them and I have no employment reason reason to fear injury to their person or property...

running out of ideas!!! [sad2]

WayneWong, did you ever get your permit?

 

[aig1]

My only suggestions are
1) Chill out
2) accept the fact that you are going to get a RESTRICTED license

I am not interested in solutions that involve under the table favors or hefty lawyer fees. I want a level play ground for everybody not just the ones with extra cash or political connections.

So vote, write to your representatives, support GOAL and other pro-gun groups. this is all us mortals can do.

If there were a magic formula or argument to convince any of the red towns to issue ALP we will all be having unrestricted licenses. It is safe to assume that such magic argument that works for most applicants does not exist.

The sooner you accept the facts the sooner you can channel your energy towards something productive like writing your representatives to support S.1361 (IIRC) ,Act relative to fair licensing.


I put APL on my application. I had pages of arguments for ALP. I do not even think that the chef reads the letters. The lady helping me with the application filing process told me on the spot that I was going to get a restricted license. I was sitting there and hoping that after they read my brilliant letter they would change their minds. Guess what: I got restricted. That is virtually automatic in red towns seems like. So unless you show up with a gang of lawyers, I cannot see you or anyone else that is mortal, getting ALP in cities like Boston, Cambridge, Brookline, Newton, Somerville, etc.

If you can afford lawyers go for it. But this is not the solution I am looking for!

I best of luck in getting your LTC/A.

AIG

 

[peterpressure]

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpressure

Any more ideas?

http://www.visitnh.gov/

HAHAHAHAHAh

 

[Ripach]

For "REASON (S) FOR REQUESTING THE ISSUANCE OF CARD OR LlCENSE:" Should I put "All lawful purposes" (pissing off the chief) and probably end up with a Target/Hunting restriction or just put Sporting and pray they leave that since it offers me slightly more vague restriction.

I highlighted the Reason (s) because the plural for allows for you to list more then one reason. When I filled out my application I listed something like Self Defense, Home Defense, Target, Hunting, and All Other Lawful Purposes. If they are going to restrict you anyway let them weed through the reasons. If you/your lawyer feels sporting is a better term, add it to the list with target and hunting.

 

[peterpressure]

Filling out a draft copy of my application right now:

REASON (S) FOR REQUESTING THE ISSUANCE OF CARD OR LlCENSE: All lawful purposes including Target, Competition, Hunting, Collecting, Self Defense, Home Defense, Personal Protection, and Home Protection

Am I missing anything like varmint hunting? Plinking? haha

 

[dwarven1]

Protection from zombies.

 

[StuckInMA]

Filling out a draft copy of my application right now:

REASON (S) FOR REQUESTING THE ISSUANCE OF CARD OR LlCENSE: All lawful purposes including Target, Competition, Hunting, Collecting, Self Defense, Home Defense, Personal Protection, and Home Protection

Am I missing anything like varmint hunting? Plinking? haha

you should use context from their own site/laws
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131.htm
section (D): fear injury to his person or property

 

[Mass-diver]

On the postive, per your first post, you don't much or at all anyways...for those of that carry pretty much everyday this is our worst nightmare.

Good job on the follow up though.

 

[WayneWong]

WayneWong, did you ever get your permit?

Yes, restricted to sporting. [sad2]

 

[peterpressure]

Yes, restricted to sporting.

If it makes you feel any better mine will be sporting also...

misery loves company?

All the paperwork is in the hands of the LEO now, they once again confirmed I will be restricted as everyone else in my Town is....

They said if I don't receive my license in the mail in 8 weeks to call them...

Til then...