On Training...

[TonyD]

I have, on occasion, interjected my opinion on realistic and effective training throughout the years during casual conversations, range session, gun boards, and the like, concerning drills, training techniques, mindset and appropriate weaponry, though not as vehemently as I once used to. It seems as of late, that I find myself in the minority view concerning what constitutes necessary training and what tools are needed to bring to a gunfight. Often, after engaging in such a debate, the popular opinion has me scratching my head and wondering if my skills, training and experience is dated. What cosmic evolution occured that now relegates my knowledge as ineffectual?

Al Gore's advent of the internet has borne a new breed of warrior it seems and 9/11 has also given birth to a plethora of new training facilities that boast the 'new and improved' and 'new tactical solutions' in the area of personal protection training. Although I have not attended any of the more notable schools, I do read the many articles and reviews and I'm not here to denigrate any of them without firsthand knowledge. However, I will caution the prospective student to fully research an institution and make an informed decision as to whether the curriculum suites your specific needs.

So, it's very refreshing to witness testimony that agrees with the principles I've long held. Especially when it comes from some very respected folks in the tactical community. For instance, although I know knothing about Jim Conway, it was very good to see a comment he made on this very board about there being no real advanced techniques, only the basics. The basics, boys and girls, is what you must practice over and over. It may not be flashy and it may not look 'high speed' but this ain't no dance contest. This is about what you will fall back on during a real-life, "Oh, shit!".

I was especially pleased to see more than one article in this months SWAT magazine (as well as previous issues) that reflected the very same pricinples I've learned, advocated and taught over the years. Brent T. Wheat, Four Years and Counting, in reflecting on what he's tried to put forth to the readers summarizes some of his thoughts. Number two on the list was, "Beware of false prophets" and #3 was, "Beware of false prophets, part deux". It basically reiterates what I've said here and in the past. From the article;

"...Instructors and schools pop up like mushrooms after a warm April rain, some loudly spouting "new" and "revolutionary" doctrine that is spread by the internet and the "gun porno" (shooting magazine) industry." Further more, "...Make sure it is truly innovative rather than just feces wrapped in gold foil". And, "...If you study history, you'll see that many of theses ideas are simply recycled concepts that were discredited enough years ago that people have forgotten".

Another outstanding article is by Tim McCord & Kelly McWethy title, "Don't Just Stand There". It's a review of school in Texas that appears to use very practical situations in its curriculum. Pat (Gunner) Rogers is another instructor that I mostly agree with his philosophies.

Bottom line is have a plan. Realize what your true training needs are and seek out that training. Further more, you have to practice that training. I realize that a lot of ranges are restrictive and that's one reason these schools are so attractive. However, it does no good to reinforce bad habits every week at your local club. You will most likely react to a situation in a manner of which you have the most redundancy. Len cited how his instructor at his latest school would shout out immediate action unexpectedly and how the students reactions varied. Bill Davison of Tac Pro Shooting Center, notes how many students revert to old ingrained habits under stress. Bear in mind that this is all during a class where all of your focus is on shooting. Imagine what that will be like in the parking lot of the local Stop & Rob with your wife and kids present.

Just food for thought coming to you from the corner of, "My Opinion Only".

 

[Lynne]

I agree with you Tony. Not only do you need to find the right class for what you want to learn - you HAVE TO PRACTICE after you take the course. You will not remember OR react if you don't practice the moves. When faced with fight or flee, all fine motor skills are gone, and all you've got is muscle memory. How you train is how you'll react.

A good example of that: If you shoot a revolver - shoot it double action. Don't practice single action. (It's okay to do it once in a while for target, but not as a practice session). First (especailly in MA), if you're used to cocking the revolver, you will do that when faced with a situation. (muscle memory) What if the bad guy turns and runs? You've got a ton of adreneline running through your veins - can you stop yourself from squeezing that trigger and hitting the SOB in the back? Hard to make a case of self defense if the bullet holes between his shoulder blades.

You also lose a couple seconds when cocking it - those couple seconds could count in saving your life, or the life of a loved one.

 

[JimConway]

Lynne and TonyD
I am coming into this thread a little late, but I have a couple of thoughts to offer. There is an old adage that states that you will fight the way that you train. When I go to the range, I often watch the other shooters. There they are standing in a line doing all of the things that they would hope to never do in a fight. Last Sunday, I was working single hand (left and right, and two handed (right finger on the trigger and left finger on the trigger). Additionally, I was changing between the 4 positions every 2 0r 3 rounds. All mag changes were done with the hand not holding the gun. This exercise caused several people to ask what I was doing and why I was doing it. I explained that I was doing a casualty drill in case that I was injured in a fight. I do not think that they had any idea about what I was saying
This got me thinking about other things that people do that can effect the way that we fight. Lynne, you mentioned shooting a revolver double action. You are right. There are many other things that we do on the firing line that are teaching us how not to fight. Just as a few examples, think of the following: out of ammo reloads, tactical reloads, and Mal-function clearances. For a while I was preaching that a MALF was a training opportunity not a problem and to fix the gun the right way. Again, I was met with deaf ears. When was the last time anyone saw someone do a tactical reload at the firing line?
We have all heard the comments that Club "X" will not allow tactical shooting. This statement is only partly true and is an excuse to not train like we want to fight.

 

[Lynne]

When was the last time anyone saw someone do a tactical reload at the firing line? We have all heard the comments that Club "X" will not allow tactical shooting. This statement is only partly true and is an excuse to not train like we want to fight.

Someone at our club asked permission to do some IDPA stuff when the outdoor pistol range wasn't in use for anything else. Most of the members were a bit leary about it (what if someone has a quib load?!??!??!, etc.). I do wish they would allow and do more of tactical training and events. The person who asked as well as Ed and I, tried to explain the benefits of doing more tactical shooting, but the majority of these guys either shoot skeet, rifles or go hunting. They sometimes have a hard time seeing beyond the end of their noses. Don't get me wrong, they're a good bunch of guys - they at least get involved in writing reps., voting, etc., but they don't see the benefit of doing anything else.

We're working on them.

 

[Chris]

The best shooters are the most consistant shooters. These are the shooters that do the same thing the same way every time. It matters not if it is bulleseye, IDPA, or street defense.

The key is to decide WHAT kind of shooting you wish to become proficient in and focus on training that skill to the point of habit.

Key is 'training' and not 'practice'. Each range trip HAS to have a purpose - even if that purpose is nothing more than "messing around to have fun". The key is, you can never see improvement unless you have a goal to reach.

Perhaps today, your goal will be to shoot at an 8" circle at 15 yards with the success of 10 shots in that circle in 10 seconds.

The key is having a realistic setup, process, and measure of success. if you reach your goal, you can fine tune it for the next goal.

------------------

As for getting the club to allow IDPA, the way I did it with my club was to present a VERY comprehensive training and safety report along with my request that showed how I'd run the events and mitigate the possible safety issues.

Start SLOW. The first night I did an Action Pistol event (we didn't even know if we were going to be IDPA then), all we did was learn holster draws and practice making holes in the targets at different distances. Then, when I knew people had that, we added multiple targets. Then we added different shooting postions. Finally, we added barriers. Riverside spent two years BEFORE we became an IDPA club learning how to BE an IDPA club. I paid to have a trainer come out from Conneticut to run a Safety Officer program at our facility.

It was only then - when we were comforable with our own shooting that we opened up to the public.

Even today, the "Practice Nights" are extremely popular for the very fact that it is instructive and not a pressure environment.

It also helps to go to other clubs and see how they do things. I've stolen ideas from all over to make our program as good as I can make it.

But don't try to start up an action pistol program by dragging out barricades, moving targets, and all kinds of props when you don't even know if your shooters are going to clear their holsters properly.

Start small with just interested club members and then work up to being an afiliated club.

Safety and shooter comfort with the basics of action pistol and IDPA in general is why I set about this year developing a 7 hour beginner course. So that shooters have some of the basic skills and understanding without that "Trial by Fire" feeling of walking in green. Obviously it was a good idea. I've been filling the class over a month early.

Trust me, that first match i attended was a nightmare. I felt completely overwhelmed. It wasn't until I took Rob Boudry's IPSC class that things really began to make sense. (Thanks Rob) But even then I was looking for something different, but I didn't know exactly what.

We held club only matches under IPSC, IDPA, and a few other shooting sport rules. The participants decided to be an IDPA club based on what they saw. No longer was it "Chris's Program" but the "Club's Action Pistol Program".

I respect and listen to each and every shooter that participates in our program. I'm always looking to find ways to improve and make it more enjoyable. I've been at it going on 5 years now and I still feel it is a work in progress.

But you have to start somewhere, and really recommend picking something simple like running a night of holster drills or such and building from there.

 

[Lynne]

Thanks Chris - that's good info. Actually, we were planning on starting with a few slow and easy things - like drawing from the holster, etc. because I know few actually know what they're doing. Actually, if I can get a Thursday night where I'm not on call for students, I'd like to come down and watch what you do at Riverside. Since you're so "creative" (I'm being nicer than Ross ), you might give me some diabolical brain storms. [lol]

 

[dwarven1]

Since you're so "creative", you might give me some diabolical brain storms. [lol]

Creative: (adj) Evil; diabolical; warped. see: Chrisbert

[twisted] [twisted]

Ross

 

[TonyD]

Lynne and TonyD
I am coming into this thread a little late, but I have a couple of thoughts to offer. There is an old adage that states that you will fight the way that you train. When I go to the range, I often watch the other shooters. There they are standing in a line doing all of the things that they would hope to never do in a fight. Last Sunday, I was working single hand (left and right, and two handed (right finger on the trigger and left finger on the trigger). Additionally, I was changing between the 4 positions every 2 0r 3 rounds. All mag changes were done with the hand not holding the gun. This exercise caused several people to ask what I was doing and why I was doing it. I explained that I was doing a casualty drill in case that I was injured in a fight. I do not think that they had any idea about what I was saying
This got me thinking about other things that people do that can effect the way that we fight. Lynne, you mentioned shooting a revolver double action. You are right. There are many other things that we do on the firing line that are teaching us how not to fight. Just as a few examples, think of the following: out of ammo reloads, tactical reloads, and Mal-function clearances. For a while I was preaching that a MALF was a training opportunity not a problem and to fix the gun the right way. Again, I was met with deaf ears. When was the last time anyone saw someone do a tactical reload at the firing line?
We have all heard the comments that Club "X" will not allow tactical shooting. This statement is only partly true and is an excuse to not train like we want to fight.

Jim - I agree. I think we've touched on that topic in other threads, also. I think part of the reason some folks won't train like they may have to fight is because they may miss the target or not a have as tight as group while slow firing, therefore embarassing themselves in front of friends. As long as they can stand up there and slow fire everything is fine.

Chris - The problem with "consistent shooters" is, it matters what they are doing consistent. The context of this thread is about personal protection and self defense. IDPA trains you to compete in IDPA. Bullseye trains you to shoot bullseye, etc. I'm usually alone in this thought, however, I believe most of these disciplines can be used as small parts of an overall self defense training program.

 

[Admin]

I believe most of these disciplines can be used as small parts of an overall self defense training program.

I agree, good shooting habits are good shooting habits. Being able to hit the target is first and foremost. Once you master that, learning defensive techniques is the next step in progression.

 

[Lynne]

I believe most of these disciplines can be used as small parts of an overall self defense training program.

I agree, good shooting habits are good shooting habits. Being able to hit the target is first and foremost. Once you master that, learning defensive techniques is the next step in progression.

Agree and agree. What some people misunderstand about self defense shooting is that they HAVE to have the nice tight little groups on the perp like they do on paper. Not so - you aim center mass and hit that - it don't matter if the holes wind up 6, 8 or 10 inches apart from each other - the desired end result is that you stop the threat.

You can't practice under the same conditions (i.e., you don't have the adreneline pumping), but the more proficient you become from practicing and training, then the muscles will kick in and hopefully get you out of a bad situation in one piece. Shaken, yes, but not bleeding.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Agree and agree. What some people misunderstand about self defense shooting is that they HAVE to have the nice tight little groups on the perp like they do on paper. Not so - you aim center mass and hit that - it don't matter if the holes wind up 6, 8 or 10 inches apart from each other - the desired end result is that you stop the threat.

You can't practice under the same conditions (i.e., you don't have the adreneline pumping), but the more proficient you become from practicing and training, then the muscles will kick in and hopefully get you out of a bad situation in one piece. Shaken, yes, but not bleeding.

I will take Gabe Suarez's position here and respectfully disagree!

He contends (and I concur) that to END the threat successfully and QUICKLY (so you minimize the chance of also getting shot), you must place all the shots in a tight area (center of chest between the bottom of the neck and end of sternum . . . straight across from armpits) to "shut him down" quickly . . . or in the ocular cavity (anywhere else in the head area may wound but unlikely to hit critical area and shut the perp down quickly). Difference is that centermass shots may make perp bleed out and go down . . . eventually . . . but he's "still in the fight" for a while until this happens, thus lessening your chances for survival!

 

[Nickle]

From my perspective, Len, which does not yet apply to the streets in this country, hits and speed counts most in a pistol battle.

A tight group that's slow doesn't get the job done, especially when the other guy has a select fire AK-47. A fast response, with a few misses, but ENOUGH hits works.

The bad guy needs to go down, and NOW in that situation. And to add, yes, anyone caught in this scenario is already behind the power curve. You fight with what you have at hand.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Nickle, if you are taking on a perp with an AK-47 and all you have is an handgun, you are in a world of trouble. Shoot and scoot in that circumstance!

But in all cases, you want to put the perp down, NOW!

Don't recall if it was Jim Crews or Randy Cain but one of these instructors had a phrase "you can't miss fast enough to win" in a gun fight!

 

[Nickle]

Well, yeah, I figure that way, too. I'd be relying on the kid behind the Ma Deuce on the Hummer near me, or the guy next to me with his rifle.

I guess my point is that some folks concentrate WAY too long to get the perfect shot. DUMB in Combat. Point shooting at 50 meters? Also DUMB in Combat. Each has it's purpose.

Spray and pray isn't good, but 75% decent hits with 15 rounds is adequate, IMNSHO, especially when it's fast.

I put more emphasis on down NOW, than down with a minimum of shots.

Of course, my "perp's" wear different stuff, and are armed different than what you'll see here in the US.

 

[Chris]

In a fight for your life, you "Cheat to Win" PERIOD.

As for the adrenalin, that is one reason for competition. Can't tell you the number of first time Action Pistol shooters who come off their first stage and can't recall any moment of shooting it. Total blur.

But being under that pressure, helps you to function under pressure. Yes, it is different, but it does help.

But in 'training' you are not looking to simulate the complete effects of a real world, but practice the basic mechanicals so that they become something you do not need to think about. in effect, your mind is freed to make the decision of "Shoot there, now there, and next there" while the rest of the body is simply doing the mechanics out of habit, reflex, trained response.

I agree with Len and Gabe in that you want EVERY hit to count. flesh wounds and misses are USELESS time and resourcs. And could potentially be liability.

If you need to shoot, you also need to know that the only thing you need to think about is the go/no go decision, the rest should be automatic.

When it comes to action pistol and all the props and other crap we liter the range with, the idea is to learn to make so much fo the actions automatic. One thing I try hard to do is force the shooter to solve problems. Cant tell you how many times I'll get bombarded with questions as to how to proceeed. In the real world, there are no COF sheets and all your targets are not labeled T1-T5.

I'm always pointing out to shooters that you can never miss fast enough to win. I also have shooters who get so caught up in the need to hit perfect scores that they forget about time. No use hitting perfect Mickey Mouse ears on the center of an 8" circle if it takes you 4 seconds to do it. 4 seconds is longer than most gun fights.

But you are also correct that IDPA is a limitation by the very nature of it's structure. As i've said before, It will NOT teach you how to defend yourself with a gun, but rather allow you to train the skills that can be useful in such defense.

Think about it this way... You can drive a car for 30-40 years and master how to do so in all kinds of weather and road conditions. But that practice will be useless if I stuck you in a high end race car and asked you to compete. Sure, the basic skills are similar, but the ability to use them at the speed and edge needed for that level of activity is beyond you.

Same deal with shooting. You can visit the range every day for a year and hit perfect 10's until you run out of ammo, but get thrown into a life or death struggle under time and stress pressures and most people fold. ONLY competition and seeking out those who are better than you are will allow you to pick up the stress and pressure related skills you also need.

It really still comes back to defining a goal and reaching it. Defining the next goal and reaching it. Just like the NRA Marksmanship Program. You do your 10 targets for Pro-Marksman, move on to each successive level until you hit expert. The only real difference in training for defensive use is that you MUST incorporate time into the equation. You need to be accurate AND quick. Good instructors provide good ways of building those skills. A good class doesn't make you a better shooter, but gives you the tools and techniques to become a better shooter. It's still up to you to make the effort.

 

[KMaurer]

The important thing is the same principle that Nathan Bedford Forrest credited for his success: Get there firstest with the mostest. Neither a lot of very quick misses or a long deliberate X-ring shot are going to keep you alive.

Ken

 

[Nickle]

Now that I can agree with.

A few misses, OK. A lot of misses, might as well not have shot. Take too long, and you may not get to shoot.