OK Tony and Derek and others, how about this one then?

[Ozman]

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwa2s20.asp

Hopefully I can use this one as a service rifle in HP matches, since
I just bought one last night. 20" heavy barrel, 1/9 twist. Picked up off the classifieds here. Looks to be in great shape inside and out. Always wanted an AR, but hopefully I can use this one in some local matches. Doing that CMP class last week gave me the itch.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Steve

 

[cdkayak]

That one looks service rifle legal to me. As for the 1:9 twist, DryDock mentioned in another post that he's had good luck with 75gr bullets out of his.

Welcome to the fun.

CD

 

[DryDock]

I'd say it does look SR legal, but if your intention is to shoot high power NRA or CMP this isn't what you want to use. If you want an AR to go to the range with and have fun with that will last and produce decent groups then you picked out a great first AR.
Congrats, and range report requested.

DD

 

[Ozman]

I'd say it does look SR legal, but if your intention is to shoot high power NRA or CMP this isn't what you want to use. If you want an AR to go to the range with and have fun with that will last and produce decent groups then you picked out a great first AR.
Congrats, and range report requested.

Guys, thanks for the input.

DD, as I'm totally new to this, can you give me a critique on where an AR like this falls short as far as NRA/CMP comepetition is concerned? I plan on doing whatever matches I can find before the end of the year (I think there is one around here next Sunday). No intention on spending any money on it now, but is it a question of the barrel twist? The trigger group? The sights? All of the above?

Either way, I couldn't pass it up at $625.

Again, thanks for the help.

Steve

 

[cdkayak]

Ozman,

That rifle will get you started and probably hooked.

The limitations you will find first are going to be related to the trigger, handguard and possibly the barrel.

A match trigger will make a big difference and you'll notice the difference if you get to try another competitors rifle.

Since the handguards are not free floated they will be a limiting factor. When you sling up for the sitting and prone positions you will be putting pressure on the barrel changing your point of impact. There are service rifle legal handguards that are free-floated:
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/dcm/9349059cga.asp
http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/ sixth one down.
and others.

The barrel should be fine. You'll be limited on how heavy of a bullet you can use with a 1:9 twist. That will be more of a handicap at 300 and 600 yards.

All that being said; go to the matches shoot and have fun. We have several people shooting stock rifles at the matches at our club and doing fine, it's a 300 yard reduced course. As you shoot and get to try some other rifles you'll find out what you want to upgrade first.

Enjoy the matches and ask questions.

CD

 

[DryDock]

Ozman,
The short answer is all of the above. The biggest down side of using this rifle in SR matches are (IMHO)
1) the sights- are not fine enough to really pull down consistant X or 10's. I can't do this even with match sights, but that issue is me and not the gun. this is a plus to know, as I only have one thing to fix, me.
2) the chrome bore- great for long life, not so good for accuracy. I feel the twist should be 1-8 min.
3) the trigger- nothing like a good 2 stage, the single stage can be cleaned up some but still not what your competitors are using.
4) no float tube- when you tighten up into your sling this will put strain directly on the barrel, the question is can you put the same pressure on it every time.

I'm a noob at this SR-HP stuff myself, just go to the diffrent MFG's and look at their match rifles, they all have the same stuff, just of different quality. I'm not saying not to give it a try, but you'll be racing a corvette with your neon.

If I'm off base here then please slap me and set me straight, as I said I too am a NOOB.
As for your new rifle,you got a sweet deal on a fine rifle no question about it, it's just not the match rifle that you seemed to be looking for in your post.

DD

ETA: Just wanted to let you know that you have just been infected with BRD (Black Rifle Disease) their is no known cure and the only treatment is more AR's.
Happy shooting!

 

[Ozman]

The short answer is all of the above. (IMHO)

Hey, that's why I asked! A week or so ago I asked about carbines in HP and got enough input that swayed me towards a 20" rifle like the one I bought last night. But I also knew I wasn't buying a true match rifle, but figured I'd at least be able to get out there and have some fun.

I shot a few decent (so I was told) strings at the CMP novice program at Riverside last week, using a 50-60 year old Garand. Although it was the easiest string, I hit mostly 10's and X's on the 100 yard target. Couple of 8's and 9's thrown in to the mix. First time shooting on a 100 yard course. A bunch of 10's and x's on the other strings too, although far more outer rings shots on the later ones. I only had half my hits in the rings on the simulated 600 yard, but the ones I had were mostly in the black and everything else was on the paper, centered but high. So I was encouraged, even if it may have been first timers luck.

I'm not saying not to give it a try, but you'll be racing a corvette with your neon.

Funny you mention that: At the risk of sounding like a pompous ass, I spent a season racing a Neon in SCCA Solo II competition. I pretty regularly handed the local 'Vette guys their hats. That said, I know what you're saying and hear you loud and clear. I've also raced the wrong car for the class in the past. Like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

ETA: Just wanted to let you know that you have just been infected with BRD (Black Rifle Disease) their is no known cure and the only treatment is more AR's.

Diagnosis correct. I have wanted one of these since I was a kid. I figured this rifle would let me get out there and have some fun, learn my way around the basics, like proper zeroing, sighting, etc..., without having to spend $1300 or more right now. Of course, now I need a carbine...


Steve

 

[C-pher]

Like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

You know, within a 21 feet, most people say that a guy with a knife in his pocket can get to you before you can get to the firarm.

 

[KMaurer]

An extremely good reason to (1) not let an attacker get too close before terminating the attack, and (2) not standing still as if you were on the range during such an event.

Ken

 

[TonyD]

Aside from the fact that it is always wise to bring a knife to a gun fight, let's get back to your rifle.

It's a decent rifle but it will never compete when you get better at shooting. Your limitting factors are the twist and barrel. 1:9 can do okay for 75's but never do well for 80's at the 600. Worse, is the chrome-lining. That's for longevity of a field rifle but acts adversely to accuracy.

However, you have a basis. You need to replace the barrel with a quality stainless steel barrel AT LEAST 1:8 if not tighter. Match front sight assembly and 1/2 minute rear. The absolute most accurizing component of the AR is a free-float tube. Get it with the barrel.

Make sure your trigger is 4 1/2 pounds and get use to it by dry firing. When you become a high master, worry about spending the $$ for a better trigger.

After you have a competitive upper, use good ammo, then get the other equipment you're going to need; A GOOD quality shooting jacket, scope and stand, mat, etc.

This is the best advice I can give you. After that, it's up to your dedication and practice.

 

[Ozman]

Great info. Thanks. I'm definately going to shoot it as it sits, for now. I'm sure about 1/4 of the way into the winter I'll be find some incredibly good reason why I suddenly need to start upgrading a gun I barely know how to shoot, but I think we all know how that works...

I've seen 75 thrown around as suggested bullet weight. Is that what you guys would run through a gun like this? Am headed out to buy some ammo.

Thanks again.

Steve

 

[DryDock]

Steve

The 75Gr. is really the heaviest bullet you can shoot with a 1-9 twist, that being said I have a Varminter with a 24"BBL and have sent a few hot 77Gr, bullets down range with ok results. This was an exception and not the rule, I only tried this because I ran out of ammo at a match and a fellow shooter lent me a couple rounds to finish the course, there is no need to beat up your rifle with hot loads. If you want to try some Black Hills 77Gr. SMK you may or may not have good results.

Do you reload?

Tony wouldn't Steve be better off changing the rear sight aperature and using a flat tire hold with the stock 72 post? This is a noob question so please go easy on me. :? But then again posts are only about $10.

DD

 

[TonyD]

I've heard some folks say they can shoot 77's through a 1:9 but I've not seen any proof or results. I'm using 75's for short range and 80's for 600 in a 1:7.

If you change the front post (smaller) you need to change the rear aperature. The hold is really a preferance. I use a couple of holds depending on the stage of fire.

 

[Nickle]

I've heard some folks say they can shoot 77's through a 1:9 but I've not seen any proof or results.

Like you, Tony, I'll believe it WHEN I see it. I'm very skeptical.


Steve - I suggest upgrading the gun over the course of time. It can be made into a competitive gun, I suggest sending it to a smith that specializes in Match AR work to have the barrel and free float tube installed.

 

[USMA-82]

Now the really bad news...

By the time you're done getting the ammo, shooting jacket, glove, scope, scope stand, stool, sling, cartridge holder (for off-hand), spare parts, magazines, sight black, shooting glasses, open-bolt flag, timer, and miscellaneous other items.......

you'll find the cost of the rifle was just a drop in the bucket.

The good news is that you can get these things over time, and spread out the financial pain.

Also - whatever else you do, don't skimp on the jacket or scope. You will regret it.....

 

[Ozman]

This is sort of like an on-line class for intro to High Power! Great stuff.

I am going to shoot the gun "as-is" for now, but like I was saying before, like most of you guys, I can never leave well enough alone. I'll probably find a reason to upgrade the gun over the winter.

I've bought a sort of pu-pu platter of ammo since Saturday. Went into Tite-Group on Monday since I'd never been in there. Couldn't walk out empty handed so, I bought a sampling of what he had, which was all 55 gr stuff.

Went into Four Seasons yesterday and Carl had some 62 gr ammo, so I bought 60 rounds of that for Sunday. (And a 30 round pre-ban mag for no other reason than I wanted one).

So, a few of you guys have stressed a good shooting jacket. Honestly, I would not have put so much importance on one. Of course, I've never used one either. What is the reason for them, and what advantage do they give? Also, any particular brands you'd suggest? Again, not going to run out now and buy one, but I am sure I will later.

I also need to pick up a sling. Do I read the rules correctly that you are limited to a simple military style sling?

Steve

 

[Nickle]

It can't be said too many times to NOT skimp on the jacket. If you get a cheap one, you'll end up buying a good one later, and the money you spent on the first one will be wasted.

 

[Admin]

Creedmoor makes the best jackets on the market. They are expensive, but you get what you pay for. http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/home.php

You can use a web sling or a leather sling like these

http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/home.php?cat=256