Ocala police officer dies after accidental shooting during training

[noxin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz2EZRlesbY

This video shows how to strip a glock without pulling the trigger. Interesting.

 

[Bonesinium]

If you visually check that it is clear, and it isn't but you think it is, then you aren't actually paying attention and shouldn't be handling the firearm at all until you decide to care. And chances are, if that is the case, it doesn't much matter what you do, you are prone to mistakes.

 

[KBCraig]

This is the problem I've always had with military-style range rules: the assumption that at some point, a gun is unloaded.

I don't care for the rule of "treat every gun as if it's loaded", because people inevitably don't really, when they and those around them have gone through a clearing procedure. I prefer it the way I do it: treat every gun knowing that it actually IS loaded, because it is.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

What was the shooter thinking?

Some guns (Glock comes to mind) require the trigger be pulled as the third step of the disassembly process - step 1 being point in a safe direction, and step 2 being to check the chamber. My guess is that it was a Glock or Glock like weapon that required a trigger pull to disengage the striker from the sear plate.

I don't care for the rule of "treat every gun as if it's loaded",

I don't care for it, since it can lead to carrying an unloaded gun for protection. I prefer "treat every gun as if it is in the state you do not want it in until you have personally proven otherwise". I still teach the "treat every gun as loaded" mantra in classes though for simplicity of the message.

 

[M1911]

If you visually check that it is clear, and it isn't but you think it is, then you aren't actually paying attention and shouldn't be handling the firearm at all until you decide to care. And chances are, if that is the case, it doesn't much matter what you do, you are prone to mistakes.

People make mistakes. They always have and they always will. They get tired. They get distracted. They get sick. That is why there are multiple safety rules. You have to break more than one safety rule for something bad to happen.

No, I'm not excusing people for screwing up. But I'm saying that even the best of us will screw up at some point.

However, this incident required more than one mistake. It required at least two mistakes at the same time. And that goes beyond making a simple mistake and rises to negligence.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the problem I've always had with military-style range rules: the assumption that at some point, a gun is unloaded.

I don't care for the rule of "treat every gun as if it's loaded", because people inevitably don't really, when they and those around them have gone through a clearing procedure. I prefer it the way I do it: treat every gun knowing that it actually IS loaded, because it is.

I do prefer a hot range. Unfortunately, almost every competition I've been to runs a cold range. And even with hot range rules, when you clean your gun you still have to unload it correctly.

 

[turbo38gn]

Can you show me where the safety is on my G19?

It's always on your hand.... I think it's called the index finger...

 

[Rob Boudrie]

This video shows how to strip a glock without pulling the trigger. Interesting.

A problem with this method is that it requires disassembly beyond the field stripping the manufacturer recommends for end users. Departments tend to have policies restricting this level of disassembly to certified personel only. An FBI agent I knew socially told me he was not allowed to strip his weapon beyond field stripping, and had to turn it in to an agency armorer for anything requiring a detail strip.

 

[Bonesinium]

People make mistakes. They always have and they always will. They get tired. They get distracted. They get sick. That is why there are multiple safety rules. You have to break more than one safety rule for something bad to happen.

No, I'm not excusing people for screwing up. But I'm saying that even the best of us will screw up at some point.

I hear you on that. I was just trying to point out if you are going to visually check something, you need to actually make a conscious decision to visually check it, and not just go through the motions. So if you see it wrong, you are just going through the motions, and the same thing probably applies to anything you are doing at that time. I'm certainly not arguing against multiple different checks, just saying if you do 1 wrong, you might do another wrong, so you probably shouldn't be handling a firearm at all at that point.

 

[GPP]

He means that the second officer fired his gun. He pulled the damn trigger of a loaded gun while it was pointed at a fellow officer. Moron should be charged with manslaughter.

We are being told it was a ricochet, I think the news had it that way as well. Certainly does not lessen the fact that he wasn't paying attention though.

I learned at Parris Island, the sing song of the voice in the tower; Unload, Clear, and Lock. I follow it the same way every time, and I teach it the same way. If you do it that way, you cant pull the trigger on a full chamber, because the slide is locked back. Very simple.

 

[GlockJock]

Graham tells the Ocala Star Banner (http://bit.ly/1a0UqGj ) that the shooting happened in an area where weapons are cleaned after the officers had completed live firing.
Graham says the second officer's weapon fired and a bullet struck Forsyth in the arm before traveling into his chest. He says Forsyth was wearing a bulletproof vest but its sides were not protected.

He means that the second officer fired his gun. He pulled the damn trigger of a loaded gun while it was pointed at a fellow officer. Moron should be charged with manslaughter.

Yeah, I noticed that right away in the story also. Reminded me immediately that a certain % of the population actually believes that a GUN can fire by itself.
"The second officer's weapon fired..."
Remember how Bill Clinton (and probably soon Hillary) would "admit" that he made a "mistake"? "Mistakes were made" ...(Never "I made a mistake")...
"second officer's weapon fired and a bullet struck Forsyth"
Yep, I'm gonna check on my G22 right now, just in case it is sleepy or upset and "fire" like the second officer's did.

God, what an awful mistake. I can't even comprehend what the shooter must be feeling right now...

 

[GlockJock]

Can you show me where the safety is on my G19?

Well, in my case, it's in the same place as it is on all my Glocks (and my revolvers) - it's between my ears.

 

[blindfire]

OCALA, Fla. (WOGX FOX 51) - Ocala police say one of their officers has died after being shot during firearms training on Monday.

Officer Jared Forsyth, 33, was rushed to a Ocala Regional Medical Center in critical condition and immediately taken into surgery, but he later died from his injuries. According to a police spokesperson, the accidental shooting happened just before 3:30 p.m. at a gun range at the Lowell Correctional Institution, at 3700 NW 111th Place in Ocala.

Because the Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating the incident, few details of the shooting are being released at present time, and another officer who was involved is not being named.

"Words cant express the sorrow that I feel for losing an officer under my watch. I just pray I don't lose two. If you pray, please pray for my officer, pray for the one who didn't survive, and pray for the one that hopefully will survive this," said Ocala Police Chief Greg Graham.

Officer Forsyth joined the force in April of 2012. He leaves behind a mother and a stepfather.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/2...cal-after-being-shot-during-firearms-training

Terrible accident. I wonder how it happened.

One of the things that stuck with me from EddieCoyle's pistol safety class seemed silly to me at the time...but after actually handling my own firearms and reading these stories...it now rings so true.

He told our class that when you clean your guns, the first thing you do is clear the weapon and then take ALL of the ammo and put it away...away from the cleaning station. Put it back into your storage box.

Seemed like common sense to me, hence the reason for thinking it silly to say to a class....

I told a buddy this recently and added that we have to do this so those pesky bullets can't jump back into the gun and make it unsafe. Cuz...you know how bullets are..

 

[Radtekk]

Even when I drop a mag I rack the slide 3 times in rapid succession. This helps prevent your first story. If your habit is to rack more than once, you'll cycle a loaded round out when a loaded mag is inserted. Rounds flying out of your gun as you rack it is a good reminder you need to square your shit away mentally and get back on point. This can be a good stop gap when you are fatigued.

What I usually do, what I'm ALWAYS gonna do, and teach, from now on. Bolt actions too fwiw...

yup ---always rack more than once---2 is good , 3 is better

Isn't that why we carry a spare mag? "Two is one, one is none" kinda thing...

I know this may sound like picking nits... but here's the way I look at clearing guns. I don't tell people to look for an empty chamber. The brain sees what it wants to see. I tell them to look for brass. It's a more affirmative way (imo) of verifying an empty chamber. Brains play tricks. I also try to be in the habit of just locking back slide after dropping a magazine, then I look for brass, then I do my OCD racking session.

Excellent idea!

this was probably not an option. My closest friend is a deputy sheriff in a different county in FL and after qualifying they are required to clean their gun before presenting it to the armorer for inspection.

Saw them do this during a PD Qual at Westford a while back. And if the level of rules compliance was as lackadaisical as the number of "Is this clean enough?" questions, they need a refresher.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Can you show me where the safety is on my G19?

Would you be referring to the internal drip safety that keeps the sear plat elevated until pulled forward; the trigger safety that removes any possibility of the trigger self-pulling under inertial when dropped; or the firing pin safety that keeps the firing pin from touching the primer unless the trigger is pulled to the rear? I can show you any of these three safeties.

 

[CTpatriot]

Even when I drop a mag I rack the slide 3 times in rapid succession. This helps prevent your first story. If your habit is to rack more than once, you'll cycle a loaded round out when a loaded mag is inserted. Rounds flying out of your gun as you rack it is a good reminder you need to square your shit away mentally and get back on point. This can be a good stop gap when you are fatigued.

i like a visual/tactile check of the chamber. extractors can break at just the wrong time.

 

[M1911]

We are being told it was a ricochet, I think the news had it that way as well. Certainly does not lessen the fact that he wasn't paying attention though.

Damn. Not as bad as having an ND while pointing the gun at someone, but still, as you said, fundamentally his fault.

 

[Robert1]

He means that the second officer fired his gun. He pulled the damn trigger of a loaded gun while it was pointed at a fellow officer. Moron should be charged with manslaughter.

Elementary. He ignored at least two cardinal rules. That is how accidents happen.

 

[Robert1]

Although I did not think much of it, I find myself using the "Loaded Chamber Indicator" or my Ruger SR9 as an additional safety point. It does not eliminate racking the chamber after dropping the mag. Admittedly, I don't do it 3 times. Maybe I should...
But no matter what, I will never pull a trigger unless it is pointed in a safe direction. ANd that is only after competitions.
I have to admit, that there has been once where I pulled the trigger thinking the chamber was empty, and it was not...
It was scary but safe, because the gun was pointed in a safe direction. Things will happen. Only religious adherence to the basic safety rules will ensure that nobody gets hurt.

 

[PATRON]

I am not going to say he should have, could have,because we all know he didn't do something right,and he payed for it with his life.What we have to learn from this is to never let our guard down when it comes to saftey. May God be with him,and his family.

 

[71montess]

I am not going to say he should have, could have,because we all know he didn't do something right,and he payed for it with his life.What we have to learn from this is to never let our guard down when it comes to saftey. May God be with him,and his family.

Amen.

 

[mibro]

I thought I was the only OCD full anal retentive idiot who did this, except of course for my kids, who rack x3 and follow Appleseed range rules.

You, me and the entire British Army, fwiw. It's an excellent habit and should be standard practice. If there's a loaded mag in the mag well you will see at least two rounds fly out. Hard to miss.

 

[OfficerObie59]

A problem with this method is that it requires disassembly beyond the field stripping the manufacturer recommends for end users. Departments tend to have policies restricting this level of disassembly to certified personel only. An FBI agent I knew socially told me he was not allowed to strip his weapon beyond field stripping, and had to turn it in to an agency armorer for anything requiring a detail strip.

QFT.

 

[gregs]

For people who don't handle firearms a lot, it's generally ignorance.
For people who do handle firearms a lot, it's generally not so much arrogance as complacency. It only takes a moment of carelessness.

I've had a negligent discharge with my Glock. Not accidental, negligent. I was going to strip the slide to show another shooter the barrel. So, I cleared the chamber by racking the slide, pointed the muzzle in a safe direction and pulled the trigger so that I could take the slide off. What the hell? The gun was empty, right? Wrong. It would have been empty if I'd dropped the magazine like I was supposed to.

Magazine first or a ride in the hearse, just saying.