non-compliant mags

[TonyDedo]

I know of a guy who's routinely had a friend buy non Mass compliant mags out of state and bring them into the state.

I've warned him he was asking for trouble, but he always responds with the, "it's no big deal," "everyone does it," and "there's no way to get caught" replied.

I haven't had anything to come back to him with, because I don't know the consequences, or chances of getting caught, or even if it's common practice.

Does anyone have any input I can tell him?

He's also scheming about having his out of state friend buy a non compliant gun and "loan" it to him, long term.

 

[TomH]

This guy is stupid, its not worth the risks. Not only is he putting himself at risk for legal troubles, he will make all gun owners in MA look bad by his example and give the anti's more ammo.

-Tom

 

[Dirtypacman]

As mentioned above... not a smart thing to do. Nothing you want to get caught up in. Nothing his "friend" should be getting caught up in either.

 

[Lynne]

I sincerely hope he's got a good lawyer on retainer and numerous thousands in his savings account for the trial. I also agree that when he gets caught, he'll put the rest of us in a bad light. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity can't.

 

[LoginName]

Not very smart or bright, is he?

Myself? I've had plenty of opportunities to bring in/purchase post-ban mags and/or off-list handguns, but... I never have and never would. It's not because of some moral value that one should always obey the law (even unconstitutional ones), but because I don't want to face the repercussions if caught.

I'd wager that 99% of people who break the law say to themselves "there's no way to get caught". Apparently they were wrong; otherwise the prisons and jails would be empty. I guess your friend never heard of "Murphy's Law"?
There's always a way/chance that he'll be caught and it'll come out of nowhere. Police, fire, EMTs could respond to an unrelated call at his home (he may or may not be home at the time), the mags are left out in the open and some Super Trooper spots them. He could be returning home from the range, get involved in a motor vehicle accident. He gets taken to the hospital while the police go through his vehicle to inventory and/or secure items. He could get in a heated fight with his wife or GF and she can turn him in....etc.

I could be wrong here, but, sure... if he got caught and convicted (and no other charges were involved), the chances of going to prison are slim (at least for the mag possession), but now he has a felony record. That means a permanent loss of his RKBA... even if he were to later move to a free state where firearms ownership is taken for granted.

 

[hminsky]

Not very smart or bright, is he?

Myself? I've had plenty of opportunities to bring in/purchase post-ban mags and/or off-list handguns,

Can someone clarify something, I thought the issue with the purchase of handguns was that many are not listed as passing the consumer safety guidelines set forth by our esteemed former Attorney General. In that case, I have been told that if a dealer in state sells you one of these, that the dealer not in compliance with the safety laws, but the consumer is not responsible for having been sold a potentially faulty product?

 

[LoginName]

Can someone clarify something, I thought the issue with the purchase of handguns was that many are not listed as passing the consumer safety guidelines set forth by our esteemed former Attorney General. In that case, I have been told that if a dealer in state sells you one of these, that the dealer not in compliance with the safety laws, but the consumer is not responsible for having been sold a potentially faulty product?

"Off list" meaning not on the EOPS roster or not registered in this state prior to 1998 (the AG has no list ).

Having an out of state friend "loan" (and I take the word "loan" in quotes to mean purchase ), an off-list handgun without going through an FFL is asking for Federal trouble.

 

[outofbattery]

Has anyone been convicted for possession of non-compliant mags unrelated to any other firearms charges? I've asked a few cops and they didn't know of anyone but also have said that in their experience,a good portion of the time some hood gets caught with a gun and drugs or on an assault charge,it's usually the firearms charge that get thrown out while the prosecution focuses on the others- quite strange.


Regarding law enforcement: a friend of mine bought his first handgun from a cop and was given the bad advice by the CLEO that gave him his LTC that the LE/Mil mags were fine for him to have! I told him to unload them ASAP.

 

[Adam_MA]

Just to clarify...

In MA, a non-compliant mag possession is a Felony. As a reminder, a felony conviction in ANY state, will exclude someone from ever legally possessing a firearm in ANY other state for life...

That said, there is nothing that says that someone can not "loan" a firearm to a friend. If they are both legal to possess the gun, no harm...

 

[TonyDedo]

Just to clarify...

In MA, a non-compliant mag possession is a Felony. As a reminder, a felony conviction in ANY state, will exclude someone from ever legally possessing a firearm in ANY other state for life...

That said, there is nothing that says that someone can not "loan" a firearm to a friend. If they are both legal to possess the gun, no harm...

Does anyone know if Mass law addresses this concept? I was trying to find it in the Regs, and I didn't see anything related to the lending of firearms. In particular, I'm looking to see if the law addresses a difference between the following three scenarios (assuming all parties involved have the proper LTCs/non-resident LTC):

1) a NH resident brings a non-compliant gun into Mass to shoot at a range/competition, and lets a MA resident shoot it that day

2) the NH resident leaves the gun with the MA resident for a short period of time (1-2 weeks)

3) the NH resident leaves the gun with the MA resident for a long period of time (3-5+ years)

My friend's arguement is, so long as no money exchanged hands, and there's no bill of sale or lease agreement, what's to stop him from having his buddy in NH buy him everything under the sun? If he is caught with a non-compliant gun, he says it belongs to his buddy from NH (which is friend will confirm), and there's no way anyone could tell if he's had it for a couple days or a couple years.

 

[drgrant]

I know of a guy who's routinely had a friend buy non Mass compliant mags out of state and bring them into the state.

I've warned him he was asking for trouble, but he always responds with the, "it's no big deal," "everyone does it," and "there's no way to get caught" replied.

In practical terms, he's generally right... it'd be pretty hard to
convict him if the mags were unmarked- which makes the law almost
unenforceable. That being said, legally speaking it's still a
FELONY. and at that, a Felony which would prohibit him from
ever owning guns again, if he ever did get caught, somehow. One
of the problems in MA is I'm unaware of any case law on the issue.
So the problem is, does he want to risk being "that guy" or not? If
he's been made aware of the law and still does nothing theres not really
much you can say at that point to change his mind.

He's also scheming about having his out of state friend buy a non compliant gun and "loan" it to him, long term.

There is nothing in MGLs (or fed law) that prohibits this, per se, but it still sounds pretty "gray" to me at best.

Edit: And if he's giving his buddy $$$$ to buy him the guns, somehow, it's still a straw purchase, which is a
fed felony.

-Mike

 

[Fooped]

Interesting point given that unless there's something I don't know, borrowing a non-compliant gun is perfectly legal as long as both parties are legally allowed to possess said firearm. I also know of no "time limit" for borrowing the item. Either of our legal eagles want to comment on this?

 

[drgrant]

Can someone clarify something, I thought the issue with the purchase of handguns was that many are not listed as passing the consumer safety guidelines set forth by our esteemed former Attorney General. In that case, I have been told that if a dealer in state sells you one of these, that the dealer not in compliance with the safety laws, but the consumer is not responsible for having been sold a potentially faulty product?

Yes, it's like buying a mattress which has had the tag torn off of
it. Still works as a mattress, though.

 

[FITH]

In practical terms, he's generally right... it'd be pretty hard to
convict him if the mags were unmarked- which makes the law almost
unenforceable.

Haven't found any mag that are marked with a "BORN ON DATE"!!( Does anyone know of markings on their mags)

The one Q that has not been brought up is ..."WAS the hi -cap mag available pre 98?" If not then there is their loophole to conviction! ! ! ! !

 

[drgrant]

Haven't found any mag that are marked with a "BORN ON DATE"!!( Does anyone know of markings on their mags)

I have some HK USP .40 mags which are marked "6/94" on the side. Not
every mag is marked, though. Some mags with plastic floorplates
may have a date stamp, but that's not helpful as the floorplate could have
been replaced.

The one Q that has not been brought up is ..."WAS the hi -cap mag available pre 98?" If not then there is their loophole to conviction! ! ! ! !

The cutoff is 9/13/94, not 1998. I do agree with your premise, though,
that probably is the easiest way to convict someone under that
law.. EG, say someone has a Springfield XD .45 14 round mag or whatever
they are... that'd be pretty easy for someone to get hung on. The gun
didn't exist until way, way after the ban went into effect.

-Mike

 

[FITH]

oops.... 94

Yes you are right with that. I was talk more of the Hi-cap with a legal gun (pre 98) . Ofcourse any gun produced after said date with a hi-cap is a big NO NO !

 

[securityboy]

I am really curious what the purpose of the post is other than to "stir the shit"...

#1. I am in NO WAY advocating breaking the law, but...

to the original poster two questions...

Has anyone (ie LEO) EVER inspected your mags to insure they are "preban"?
Has anyone EVER "run" your guns to make sure they are "yours", on the "approved list", etc?

The answer is NO, correct...because it just isn't going to happen unless you are in trouble for something else...At best these might result in "frosting on the cake" but unless the mags are clearly date or LEO/GOV marked even that is unlikely...

 

[FITH]

Well this forum in for discussing Topics....actually it is the point of this whole forum... And i would hope you are not upset that we are talking about this?!

He was asking for info so he may give his friend advice ...seems pretty noble. Seems like he doesn't want his friend to get in trouble..... Thats all

 

[Lugnut]

Interesting point given that unless there's something I don't know, borrowing a non-compliant gun is perfectly legal as long as both parties are legally allowed to possess said firearm. I also know of no "time limit" for borrowing the item. Either of our legal eagles want to comment on this?

No legal eagle here... but I'd say it was borrowed the day before.

 

[Scrivener]

I'd say an AAG with only minimal initiative and resourcces could document a pattern of straw purchases and fraud.

Not to mention conspiracy to engage in the illegal interstate transfer of firearms.

 

[MassMark]

There is some gray areas, but why risk it? Most mags are not marked with manufacture dates. As long as the gun in question was not "new" (say an M&P), I can hardly think how it could be proven that an essentially blank piece of metal was not aquired before the ban. If I owned a Thompson 1927A1 Deluxe and bought 10 25-round stick mags at a gun show out of state, I can hardly imagine how it could be proven. However, if I own a brand new Smith and Wesson M&P and am sporting 14-round mags, I'm pooched....

I'm in the why risk it crowd, but at the same time am not that stupid to think that Massachusetts magically has the exact number of high-cap mags in state this second as it did the day the ban was enacted....If that were true, gun shows would be void of them all together and they would be a larger commodity. Will I be going on any out of state mag bootleg runs? No way Jose - I value my guns too much. However, if browsing the local show at the Big E, will I turn down a USGI M14 mag or a 25rd IMI? Are you kidding?

 

[drgrant]

....
I'm in the why risk it crowd, but at the same time am not that stupid to think that Massachusetts magically has the exact number of high-cap mags in state this second as it did the day the ban was enacted....

IIRC there is no law preventing anyone from importing preban mags, so
it doesn't matter how many were "in the state". As long as the mag
was "lawfully possessed" before 9/13/94 it is legal. Just because
some pants-wetting internet vendors (like sportsmans guide- I know they
dont sell them anymore, but they're the most egregious example of pants
wetters, because they got the consent decree enema from Tom Reilly)
won't ship prebans here doesn't mean that they aren't legal for possession
by those with the appropriate LTC.

If that were true, gun shows would be void of them all together and they would be a larger commodity.

One thing most people don't know is MA FFLs are basically exempt from the
law, EG, for the purposes of transferring such magazines to LEOs and
out of state residents. So gun shows merely having the magazines
around doesn't mean that any of them are legal. I've even
seen LE marked mags at MA gunshows! (rare, but happens). Some of the
dealers, in the interest of protecting their customers, will not sell them
to anyone unless they have a badge. Others will sell them to just
about anyone.

-Mike

 

[TonyDedo]

I am really curious what the purpose of the post is other than to "stir the shit"...

Not trying to stir the shit - just trying to stay out of it

First, I want to keep my friend out of trouble. He has a tendency of pushing the boundaries and getting carried away, and some times my words of caution aren't enough to rein him in. I know he reads this forum, and if nothing else, maybe reading this thread will make him think twice about some of his actions.

Second, he's a close friend and one of my only shooting buddies. We trade hardware back and forth all the time. And if I'm strutting around with his Wilson CQB or a Springfield XD w/a 14 round mag that his friend from NH "loaned" to him, I want to make sure I'm not going to wind up in deep...

 

[Scrivener]

First, I want to keep my friend out of trouble. He has a tendency of pushing the boundaries and getting carried away, and some times my words of caution aren't enough to rein him in. I know he reads this forum, and if nothing else, maybe reading this thread will make him think twice about some of his actions.

You're not his nanny and, by your own admission, he's not likely to listen.

Second, he's a close friend and one of my only shooting buddies. [ ] We trade hardware back and forth all the time. And if I'm strutting around with his Wilson CQB or a Springfield XD w/a 14 round mag that his friend from NH "loaned" to him, I want to make sure I'm not going to wind up in deep...

Is it a "post-ban" mag? If so, you may indeed "wind up in deep ..."

 

[TY43215]

Not trying to stir the shit - just trying to stay out of it

First, I want to keep my friend out of trouble. ..

Then why would you post this on an Internet Forum??

The part that he should realize is he told you and that was his second mistake. Now it is posted for all to read along with a partial list of the firearms he/she owns and is no longer his/her private business.

 

[Ripach]

Haven't found any mag that are marked with a "BORN ON DATE"!!( Does anyone know of markings on their mags)

I have some USGI AR-15 mags marked 6/91 and some prebans I bought recently with no date at all. I think it depends on the manufacturer.

I for one would not advocate either practice, prebans mags are in plentiful supply for the most part and I still have false hope that handgun ban will end eventually.