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NH 2021 Bill thread: Critical Bills need to be voted on 5/25

A permit to avoid background checks is a really bad idea - look what the MA FID of 40 years ago turned into.

Well NH isn't MA, I too have mixed feelings, but today we have constitutional carry and a 100% optional permit used primarily for private sales and a few reciprocity states. The idea is to offer a 2nd permit, or make modifications to the current, so that it meets the fed requirements as a background check and similarly it would be optional.

Such would generally be a big plus - yes it could be weaponized down the road but so could our current permit. There is a huge difference between the MA process and the shall (really a hard must) issue NH process.

Also NH may see more reciprocity out of a slightly different permit, which would be nice, although I am sure MA would allow no such thing.
 
How design describes it is the way it was explained to me and how I understood it until some of these comments about NHGL only taking orders from the feds was brought into question. Similarly my understanding was always appeals were processed by NHGL when they made the call, also brought into question by similar comments.

If that is all true what you say, honestly it would be insane to hand it all over to a remote nameless/faceless remote alphabet agency IMO.

But either way, all you need to do that will generally please everyone is to staff the gun line right. Then people who make an issue of waits see their problems resolved, people who make an issue of "safety" see their problems resolved, and those who feel the gun line assures freedom and due process are happy too. Only downside is it costs a little money, and even with our small NH budget it is seriously a little - less so if we aren't staffing it with actual troopers and use full time agents instead.

Sure, the availability of a permit to avoid background checks all together is probably a good idea that also will help free up the system even - IMO this and staffing requirements would be a better use of government time versus trying to dismantle the gun line which is controversial to some on both sides of the isle.
From an email sent to me From Heidi Barba, Staff Counsel DOS, NH when I requested "gun line" stats
I will start with the two statistics you are most interested in regarding denied appeals. We do not handle appeals at the state level, therefore this is not a statistic we maintain. All appeals are handled at the federal level by FBI/NICS.
Pretty clear and pretty conclusive, and it is a direct quote from those in charge, so if you want to argue call Heidi.

These are from the same email and explain the stats I've posted and linked to previously
Approvals: Background checks submitted by a Federal Firearms Licensee (gun dealer) which result in either an instant approval or a subsequent approval after research is conducted.
Delays: Backgrounds check requests that cannot be categorized an approval or denial without additional research.
Instant Denials: Denials when no research is needed after a background check.
Denials: Background checks submitted by a Federal Firearm Licensee that result in either an instant denial or a subsequent denial after research is conducted.
Amended Denials: Background checks that initially result in a denial, but then are reversed, based on new information received at the state level. This is a correction process to remove a subject from denial status when appropriate. It is not an appeal.
Delay/Denial with Transfer: After a delay resulting in a firearm transfer by a Federal Firearms Licensee, it is determined the permit should have been denied. The ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives) is notified and is responsible for the process of retrieving the firearm.
As you can see, the state does MORE checks than required by the Fed. And the only time the state deals with a denial is when it's the state that messed up.

The other posters with their delusion that somehow the state system protects us from abuses at the Fed level is just crazy. You are still being checked through the Fed system and they will still do whatever they will do. NH is a POP by policy only, as soon as it's even suspected that they are circumventing Fed rules that policy will change and the NH POP will be gone. Oppose the Fed issues at the Fed level because that's the only place you can change it.
 
From an email sent to me From Heidi Barba, Staff Counsel DOS, NH when I requested "gun line" stats

Pretty clear and pretty conclusive, and it is a direct quote from those in charge, so if you want to argue call Heidi.

These are from the same email and explain the stats I've posted and linked to previously

As you can see, the state does MORE checks than required by the Fed. And the only time the state deals with a denial is when it's the state that messed up.

The other posters with their delusion that somehow the state system protects us from abuses at the Fed level is just crazy. You are still being checked through the Fed system and they will still do whatever they will do. NH is a POP by policy only, as soon as it's even suspected that they are circumventing Fed rules that policy will change and the NH POP will be gone. Oppose the Fed issues at the Fed level because that's the only place you can change it.

Based on what you are showing me I don't see how that conclusion can be drawn and it looks kinda like a play on terms. As you have seen NH actually asks you go to them post denial for information and you can even go talk to them with lawyer in tow if need be (try that with the feds).

If an incorrect denial comes from/through the NH POC, maybe it's not contested via a process called an Appeal because they don't use that term, but it can be corrected via an Ammended Denial is all.

 
Seems that the NHGL had another bad day.


Look up Quinn and here is his number. If you run into issues with a purchase, 'call the boss'.
Rumor is that there is a shortage of phone lines. Well here is one more... :) Remember they work for us.
At some point the DOS commissioner will get the message.

QUINN, ROBERT L SAFETY DEPTOFFICE OF COMMISSIONERCOMMISSIONER (SAFETY) (603) 223-3893
[email protected]
 
Based on what you are showing me I don't see how that conclusion can be drawn and it looks kinda like a play on terms. As you have seen NH actually asks you go to them post denial for information and you can even go talk to them with lawyer in tow if need be (try that with the feds).

If an incorrect denial comes from/through the NH POC, maybe it's not contested via a process called an Appeal because they don't use that term, but it can be corrected via an Ammended Denial is all.

No the terms are clear, and if you bothered to look at the stats you may even understand.

Pay close attention to the " " marks as this carried specific meaning.

To them a "background" check is NICS and "research" is State. If you are denied by something in the NICS check, which Fed law requires them to run, you have to "appeal" through the Fed system.

Now if you pass a NICS check, under the Fed system that's it APPROVED. But under the State system they do additional "research". This is NOT required by Fed law, they just want to do it. If you are denied based on that additional research, which is not required by the Feds. Then yes, they can fix that at the State level, They don't call it an "appeal" because they define that as the Fed appeal process, so they call it an "amended denial".

Now if you look at the stats I posted for 2019 (the last full year at the time I request the info).
There were 53, 010 submissions.
There were 386 "Instant Denials", but don't be confused by the name. They defined this as denials based on NICS background checks, with no State "research". "Instant" is a reference to the "I" in NICS, that's why its in " ". Unlike the common meaning of instant which is immediate.
Then there is the "Denials" of 589, this is the TOTAL of "Instant Denials" and all other denials (a.k.a. denials based solely on State "research").
So with a little math we have 203 denials based solely on State "research". Those 203 PASSED the NICS check but were still denied by the State!
Of those 203, only 18 became "amended denials". That is, the State corrected their own mistake. And remember, those 18 had to prove to the State that the State made a mistake.
So 185 were wrongfully denied by the State! 185 that under the Fed system would have been approved.
There is one stat missing, the one the State does not track because its handled by the Feds, thats how many of the 386 denials were overturned on appeal. But since that number would be the same under both the POP and direct system of Fed checks, it's really not relevant to the discussion.

So you are supporting a system that;
Causes significant delays.
Cost the taxpayers $$$$$$$$$$.
Still follows the Fed/NICS process with the same restrictions and submission of information.
And wrongfully denies law abiding people their 2a right, 185 times in 2019!

And your only argument is that the Fed MIGHT change the rules. But if they do, that will all carry down through the state POP anyway.
 
So 185 were wrongfully denied by the State! 185 that under the Fed system would have been approved.
Holding out for an explanation of what those two sentences have to do with each other.
(Hint: Just as the issuance of a Mass LTC/FID or an NH P&RL doesn't mean that you are not an FPP,
the approval of a transfer by NICS does not mean that you are not an FPP).
 
Holding out for an explanation of what those two sentences have to do with each other.
(Hint: Just as the issuance of a Mass LTC/FID or an NH P&RL doesn't mean that you are not an FPP,
the approval of a transfer by NICS does not mean that you are not an FPP).
You're diverting. We are comparing the Fed system and the NH State system.

If you prefer: 185 were denied by the State of NH "gun line", that would not have been denied under the Fed system. Assuming that the majority of those people were not Fed PP, as evidenced by their passing the Fed NICS background check, then that majority was wrongfully denied.

Does that make you feel better.
 
What we really need is a way to get on the Permanent Brady Exception list, just flash an "enhanced" P&R and be on the way, no phone call needed.

Sure, the availability of a permit to avoid background checks all together is probably a good idea that also will help free up the system even - IMO this and staffing requirements would be a better use of government time versus trying to dismantle the gun line which is controversial to some on both sides of the isle.

Well NH isn't MA, I too have mixed feelings, but today we have constitutional carry and a 100% optional permit used primarily for private sales and a few reciprocity states. The idea is to offer a 2nd permit, or make modifications to the current, so that it meets the fed requirements as a background check and similarly it would be optional.
Uh-oh! Y'all better put on your flame suits! I suggested this, on this board, a few years ago based on when I lived in AZ. AZ is one of the "NICS exemption" permit states. Busy weekend at the gun show? Go in, sign your 4473 and be out the door. Want to buy something at Scottsdale Gun Club? No permit - wait in this line. Permit? Step into this line, complete 4473 and away you go.

Yes, it costs a few dollars more. But how much is your time worth? I could spend a weekend day hitting all of the shops around the valley and still be home in time for dinner. Yes, it requires fingerprints - one time, with the initial permit. After that, send them a few bucks every 5 years and good to go.
"We shouldn't have to have no stinkin' permit!" Well, yes, nor background check nor wait. But, since those exist, the enhanced permit made the process a lot less painful.
"But an enhanced permit could be made mandatory". Yes, and con-carry could be done away with and a regular permit made mandatory if NH was flipped enough like the country was at this last election. Just my .02 Flame suit on!
 
Q1: Was Devin P. Kelley a Fed PP?
Q2: Did Devin P. Kelley pass Fed NICS background checks?
Irrelevant. It's called "diverting", it's what you do when you have no real information or argument. Doesn't even rise to the level of trolling.
We are comparing the NH "gun line" and the Fed system, please feel free to participate in the argument if you can.

As for Kelley. The Air Force failed to notify the Fed as required , and so a NICS check did not deny him. Since the "gun line" uses NICS plus State records, and I really doubt the Air Force has the NH "gun line" on its list to notify, and would actually do so when they failed to notify the Fed, he would not have been denied even in NH. The failure was the Air Force not following the law.

Oh wait, Kelley used a long gun! He would have never encountered the NH "gun line", that only applies to hand guns. So please tell us all how your comment has anything to do with the NH "gun line"
 
The proposed bill shoukd state "NH will not perform background checks or any other infringement upon buying any arm."

The purse throwing over BGCs is ridiculous. The entire process needs to be removed.
 
The proposed bill shoukd state "NH will not perform background checks or any other infringement upon buying any arm."

The purse throwing over BGCs is ridiculous. The entire process needs to be removed.
Well, getting rid of the "gun line" does this.
A NH bill is never going to do anything to the Fed. So after we get rid of the NH "gun line" then the Fed system can be addressed. It's one of those little steps that the antis have shown us works well.
 
... please tell us all how your comment has anything to do with the NH "gun line"
The case of the Sutherland Springs church shooter shows that
a successful NICS check is not proof that the applicant is not an FPP.

So it's just not true to claim that
all of the 185 out of 203 NH denials who passed NICS checks
could not possibly have been FPPs.

It's particularly easy for me to believe that at least some the 185 who passed NICS checks were:
  • Under indictment in NH for a misdafelony,
  • Under a NH domestic violence restraining order, or
  • Convicted of a domestic violence misdemeanor.
Those are all FPP qualifiers that might not be reflected in national databases.


If you expect some legislator to kill an existing bureaucracy,
you'd better get your story straight.

Because those bureaucrats know what those 185 did to get denied,
and they'll testify about it if their jobs are on the line.
 
The case of the Sutherland Springs church shooter shows that
a successful NICS check is not proof that the applicant is not an FPP.

So it's just not true to claim that
all of the 185 out of 203 NH denials who passed NICS checks
could not possibly have been FPPs.

It's particularly easy for me to believe that at least some the 185 who passed NICS checks were:
  • Under indictment in NH for a misdafelony,
  • Under a NH domestic violence restraining order, or
  • Convicted of a domestic violence misdemeanor.
Those are all FPP qualifiers that might not be reflected in national databases.


If you expect some legislator to kill an existing bureaucracy,
you'd better get your story straight.

Because those bureaucrats know what those 185 did to get denied,
and they'll testify about it if their jobs are on the line.
You're trolling with unrelated BS and everyone her knows it.
And your examples are all required to be reported to NICS, so your argument is that NH is violating the laws and procedures and because of that we have to maintain a redundant system. I have a better idea, hold those responsible for not doing their jobs. And these were brought up and addressed in the hearing, so get caught up.

Do you work for the state? Trying to protect your peeps jobs? Don't worry, no one is getting fired, they will just reassign them. There are a lot if openings right now.

ETA: I almost forgot, that case was a long gun, would never have involved the "gun line"
 
The proposed bill shoukd state "NH will not perform background checks or any other infringement upon buying any arm."

The purse throwing over BGCs is ridiculous. The entire process needs to be removed.
SB141, in trying to be helpful in cases of DV accusations, requires sheriffs to conduct NICS checks for the accused to get their guns back.

They should have left out that part, or said that if the seizing agency requires a check for someone to get their guns back, the agency can use any FFL, but must pay any transfer fees.

We had the Coös County budget meeting today. Our sheriff, who I generally agree with, piped up to say that all NH sheriffs opposed this as an unfunded mandate. It's not unfunded. It includes $10,000 per county for a computer terminal and training.

So, I don't know why that was his objection.
 
Uh-oh! Y'all better put on your flame suits! I suggested this, on this board, a few years ago based on when I lived in AZ. AZ is one of the "NICS exemption" permit states. Busy weekend at the gun show? Go in, sign your 4473 and be out the door. Want to buy something at Scottsdale Gun Club? No permit - wait in this line. Permit? Step into this line, complete 4473 and away you go.

Yes, it costs a few dollars more.
It's not "a few dollars more". Have you looked at the requirements to be a NICS-exempt state?

The exempt permit must have fingerprints submitted to the FBI, a full NICS-equivalent background check, and the issuing agency must continually monitor every licensee for violations and submit those to the federal database.

No thanks.
 
We should eliminate any state NICS and then move to negate federal infringement. I'd prefer they be done together but one step at a time is better than doing nothing.
 
You're trolling with unrelated BS and everyone her knows it.
Actually, I'd like to know if anyone else besides you
does not understand my (sole) point about
the yawning chasm in your assumptions
about what tripped up those 185 people.


But whether the bill passes or fails,
it'll be interesting to see what happens down the road.
 
It's not "a few dollars more". Have you looked at the requirements to be a NICS-exempt state?
The exempt permit must have fingerprints submitted to the FBI, a full NICS-equivalent background check, and the issuing agency must continually monitor every licensee for violations and submit those to the federal database.
I have not seen the requirements to be a NICS-exempt state, where are the requirements documented?
 
Actually, I'd like to know if anyone else besides you
does not understand my (sole) point about
the yawning chasm in your assumptions
about what tripped up those 185 people.


But whether the bill passes or fails,
it'll be interesting to see what happens down the road.

I get all that, probably 185 people with something interesting, maybe.. generally I think though no matter who is doing the checks most denials are actually government errors - be it mistaken identity, court records lacking update, or the agent making the wrong call. A certain number of denials are wong but aren't appealed and/or the denied goes and fixes the confusion on their own (ie annuls what really was a non prohibiting conviction to begin with and later buys a gun), or puts in their SS next time around.

Whatever the case, I think this eventually fails and may get vetoed. Basically 95% of the pros and cons of the bill can be solved by staffing the gun line right, is only a drawback over some $$ that isn't addressed by doing so - which has never been the main con. Sununu likes to play the middle when he can, this is a great opportunity to do that without giving the nod to anything new & restrictive for gun ownership.
 
... generally I think though no matter who is doing the checks most denials are actually government errors ...
Won't contest that. (Thanks for the sanity check).

Whatever the case, I think this eventually fails and may get vetoed. <Reasons snipped/AHM>
I feel I understand your points.
(And the constitutional arguments,
and the camel's nose/single-point-of-failure arguments).

Come to think of it, in this case different people
are going to answer the fundamental question...
Q: What is the problem to be solved?​
...differently. So it's not surprising to see folks
projecting their disparate goals onto bill proposals
and reaching different conclusions about like/hate.
 
I get all that, probably 185 people with something interesting, maybe.. generally I think though no matter who is doing the checks most denials are actually government errors - be it mistaken identity, court records lacking update, or the agent making the wrong call. A certain number of denials are wong but aren't appealed and/or the denied goes and fixes the confusion on their own (ie annuls what really was a non prohibiting conviction to begin with and later buys a gun), or puts in their SS next time around.

Whatever the case, I think this eventually fails and may get vetoed. Basically 95% of the pros and cons of the bill can be solved by staffing the gun line right, is only a drawback over some $$ that isn't addressed by doing so - which has never been the main con. Sununu likes to play the middle when he can, this is a great opportunity to do that without giving the nod to anything new & restrictive for gun ownership.
Well no one has put in a bill to fix the "gun line" so the choice is get rid of it or do nothing. This is reality. Where do you stand in this, the real world?
 
It's not "a few dollars more". Have you looked at the requirements to be a NICS-exempt state?

The exempt permit must have fingerprints submitted to the FBI, a full NICS-equivalent background check, and the issuing agency must continually monitor every licensee for violations and submit those to the federal database.

No thanks.
I meant for the permit holder. $60 for 5 years is a lot cheaper than $100 each year for a MA non-resident LTC. And I mentioned the prints for the permit holder - submitted one time. The only additional part that I was unaware of was the issuing state being required to monitor the licensee.
 
I meant for the permit holder. $60 for 5 years is a lot cheaper than $100 each year for a MA non-resident LTC. And I mentioned the prints for the permit holder - submitted one time. The only additional part that I was unaware of was the issuing state being required to monitor the licensee.
If you can guarantee MA reciprocity then you might have something.

I can safely say this because it will never happen.
 
If you can guarantee MA reciprocity then you might have something.

I can safely say this because it will never happen.
Correct. Just as my NH, AZ, CT, ME, VA, PA or FL permits have no reciprocity with MA. Doesn't mean I don't keep them or would prefer an exempt NH license.
 
If you can guarantee MA reciprocity then you might have something.

I can safely say this because it will never happen.
Massachusetts has never offered CHL reciprocity with any state or territory, and I agree, it is doubtful MA ever will.

An enhanced NICS-exempt permit could however get New Hampshire residents recognition in additional states (beyond the 28 other states where we can already carry), Delaware, for example, only recognized "Enhanced Permits" from several states which offer both a regular and a NICS-exempt variant.

I'd pay an optional "enhanced" P&R renewal rate if it brought recognition by Delaware, Wisconsin, Texas, New Mexico, Nevada, etc.
 
Well no one has put in a bill to fix the "gun line" so the choice is get rid of it or do nothing. This is reality. Where do you stand in this, the real world?

In the real world I would say, read the bill carefully before jumping on the bandwagon and pushing politicians (not directed at you just anyone) and IMO a better way to direct them is to state to focus on staffing the gun line right via legislation (which could pass while this possibly can't), and also the enhanced permit (a massive undertaking)...

Basically - spend your time on legislation that really has legs. Both sides of the isle and Sununu likely could support both and it would enhance gun rights as well as "safety" (in the eyes of some anyway).
 
Massachusetts has never offered CHL reciprocity with any state or territory, and I agree, it is doubtful MA ever will.

An enhanced NICS-exempt permit could however get New Hampshire residents recognition in additional states (beyond the 28 other states where we can already carry), Delaware, for example, only recognized "Enhanced Permits" from several states which offer both a regular and a NICS-exempt variant.

I'd pay an optional "enhanced" P&R renewal rate if it brought recognition by Delaware, Wisconsin, Texas, New Mexico, Nevada, etc.
I'd be ok with an enhanced P&R if I was confident it was and would always remain optional. Unfortunately I think it would just be used as a foothold to a permit requirement. There is simply no way to guarantee it won't be used this way.
 
I'd be ok with an enhanced P&R if I was confident it was and would always remain optional. Unfortunately I think it would just be used as a foothold to a permit requirement. There is simply no way to guarantee it won't be used this way.

I'm in the group of people who wouldn't get it, even if offered, but seems like even our current permit could be used similarly, or they could dream up a new permitting system, regardless. Just comes down to who we vote. Sure once the system is in place could be paving the way for more, but in NH what we have seen is the opposite - in the last 5 years we actually went full constitutional carry.

See both arguments, but really if the permit was a useful tool to expedite freedom, and gun owners want it, I'm not going to complain.
 
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