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Neighbors and Guns

I went in to vote in Arlington last week while wearing a gun t-shirt and ended up talking to several of the women there running the polls about guns and gun laws.

Predictably they were all somewhat antigun. We ended up talking for almost a half an hour. Most were surprised at how strict the laws already were in MA.
When I explained the entrapment feature in the lifetime FIDs and how if you owned certain guns and just didn't pay attention to changing laws, you became a felon for just owning those certain guns.

They actually all agreed this was bad law, regardless of where you fell on the gun rights spectrum.

I explained that police chiefs can arbitrarily ignore LTC applicants and there is little recourse.
I couched it as a rule of law argument. i.e. even if you don't like guns, don't you think the police departments should have to follow the law when issuing firearms permits. They were all in agreement with me on this.

In the end, I think I made a good impression. Most learned a lot.

The last thing I mentioned, was guns and children. Most were aware that certain organizations were urging parents to ask other parents if theykept guns in the house.

I asked them how many kids they thought died from accidental firearm deaths every year. They guessed pretty close, at 50. The actual number varies but is around 60 to 70 per year nationally. Then I asked them how many kids died accidentally in residential swimming pools.

I saw several eyes light up. They got it. The answer: somewhere around 600 kids die every year in swimming pool accidents.

They all agreed with my conclusion that if you are going to let logic and not emotion drive you, you should be 8 times more concerned about the presence of a swimming pool at one of your kids friend's house than the presence of firearms.

When I left, I felt good. It was a receptive audience who had never really challenged their assumptions, and I got them to do that.

Don
 
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Better have another talk with your new gunny-buddy.

The two of you might be in convience store when some goblin comes in to rob the place and then;
your neighbor turns to you and yells; "Hey Revelationechc, you got a gun,do something !" [shocked] [thinking]
 
Amazing sometimes how a lifetime of disinformation can be turned around with a short conversation. I remember when I met my wife, she grew up in JP, and Roslindale and in a family that not only didn't own guns, but were terrified at the very idea of them. It took some patience, but she finally took the safety course and applied for her LTC.
 
Revelationechc said:
I asked him "does your TV turn on all by itself? does your car start on its own? do steaks grill themselves?"
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This probably would not have been helpful in your conversation, but my TV *does* turn itself on and off and my neighbors car starts itself every morning at 6:30.

I have yet to meet a self grilling steak, however [laugh]

Sounds like you did an excellent job there.
 
This is exactly the point that I've made before - the one-on-one interaction, where a normal, rational gun owner explains some of the more asinine points of Mass gun laws to a Non is where we'll make progress.

If we (gun owners) ran a full page ad in the Glob, with a recitation of the problems with LTC issuance, nobody would care. "Of course a police chief should be able to control what happens in his community!"

But in a one-on-one, you can say, "If your police chief issued the driver's license, and said, 'I don't think anyone needs a V-8, or a standard transmission,' and refused to let you have a license for this vehicle, you'd be pissed."

This gets the message across....sometimes......

We all have a job to do.
 
It is really hard for people to understand that guns just don't go off. I will get questions like this: "but a police officer said his gun went off last week when a kid was killed. His gun went off didn't it". I will reply, "no he pulled the trigger. he pulled it accidentally, but he pulled it with his finger, or it caught on something, but the trigger was pulled. It easy to blame the gun going off to get the media and his captain off his back, and hell even to live with himself, he will eventually justify it in his mind, even though he knows better."

Usually following this question is, " what about that guy in sometown, USA that killed his son when the gun went off while cleaning it?" Again, "his mistake was he didn't clear the gun like he though he did. Then he pulled the trigger. It was a horrific accident, and a father's pain can be masked by making himself really believe the gun went off. He will admit to not properly clearing the gun, and maybe even breaking the rules about not pointing any gun ant anything you don't intend on killing, but the act of pulling the trigger he will never admit to himself. It is easier to justify a gun going off in his mind which is hurting from the tragic loss of a son."

Even with clear responses like this, some people will say they never thought of it that way, and others will still demand that guns go off. Some will say there is no way a man of the law would use a gun going off to get off of negligence, because it would be too obvious it was a cover up and the legal system wouldn't allow that gross negligence. They have to be telling the truth. They are the fuzz
 
Ed - I'm letting you pull me into the weeds, but I remember a situation a few years ago in NJ. The Governor's protective detail was sitting around the gatehouse playing cards while the Gov was out for the day. According to news reports one of the officers had his Glock on the coffee table where they were playing cards. One of the men accidentally pushed it off the table and when it hit the ground "it went off".

Ha. So totally laughable. Even if the Glock didn't have all 75 of its safeties, a fall from 18 inches onto a wood floor isn't enough to get a 70 series 1911 to fire, even if you removed the fp spring.
 
dcmdon said:
The last thing I mentioned, was guns and children. Most were aware that certain organizations were urging parents to ask other parents if theykept guns in the house.

I asked them how many kids they thought died from accidental firearm deaths every year. They guessed pretty close, at 50. The actual number varies but is around 60 to 70 per year nationally. Then I asked them how many kids died accidentally in residential swimming pools.

I saw several eyes light up. They got it. The answer: somewhere around 600 kids die every year in swimming pool accidents.

They all agreed with my conclusion that if you are going to let logic and not emotion drive you, you should be 8 times more concerned about the presence of a swimming pool at one of your kids friend's house than the presence of firearms.
Click to expand...

Well played sir!

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dcmdon said:
The last thing I mentioned, was guns and children. Most were aware that certain organizations were urging parents to ask other parents if theykept guns in the house.

I asked them how many kids they thought died from accidental firearm deaths every year. They guessed pretty close, at 50. The actual number varies but is around 60 to 70 per year nationally. Then I asked them how many kids died accidentally in residential swimming pools.

I saw several eyes light up. They got it. The answer: somewhere around 600 kids die every year in swimming pool accidents.

They all agreed with my conclusion that if you are going to let logic and not emotion drive you, you should be 8 times more concerned about the presence of a swimming pool at one of your kids friend's house than the presence of firearms.
Click to expand...

Well played sir!
 
This is the one I'm proudest of. I've known this woman for about 10 years.

A year ago she was terrified of guns. She had a family tragedy that involved a gun.
This spring she took a pistol permit class from me.

This August she came with me, my wife and a couple of friends to Walls of Steel for her first competition. She is probably the most naturally gifted shooter I've ever helped.
Not fast . . . yet. But very accurate when you consider that she's put a total of about 1000 rounds down range in her entire life.

Note the big dangly tactical earrings.

Don

[video=youtube_share;WeYzWBVa0oc]http://youtu.be/WeYzWBVa0oc[/video]


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The only thing I'd change about edhead's post is that when dealing with a Non, make sure that you speak English, not Gun.

Saying, "He didn't clear the gun" is incomprehensible to them....they don't know what "Clear" means in this context.

If you explain that the first thing that you do when you're going to clean a gun is to make sure that it's completely unloaded....you show that a "cleaning" accident is impossible; either he did it wrong, or it's a cover. This way, the responsibility is where it belongs.

Same with the cop, and the ND (which is a term not to use with a Non - they won't know what North Dakota has to do with anything).

KISS is the operative word - but however it's being done, let's all keep doing it!
 
Another one I'm proud of.

Full conversion from upper west side Anti to full fledged gun nut. He now owns a Ruger GP100 and a G17 complete with 17 and 30 round mags, just because he can.

Machine guns are like crack for Antis. Their head is saying NOOOOooooo this can't be fun. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! But their smile gives it all away.
This is him with my M11/Lage. I wish I had gotten his first mag on video. He was giggling like a school girl.
This isn't his first time shooting it. You can see some level of proficiency here.

Don

[video=youtube_share;ZnFRHomSlp4]http://youtu.be/ZnFRHomSlp4[/video]
 
Happy - I couldn't agree more. No jargon. Jargon exists to put a barrier between the user and an observer. Exactly the opposite of our goal most of the time. (Hence my other thread ranting against the terms EDC and CCW)

Don
 
dcmdon said:
This is the one I'm proudest of. I've known this woman for about 10 years.

A year ago she was terrified of guns. She had a family tragedy that involved a gun.
This spring she took a pistol permit class from me.

This August she came with me, my wife and a couple of friends to Walls of Steel for her first competition. She is probably the most naturally gifted shooter I've ever helped.
Not fast . . . yet. But very accurate when you consider that she's put a total of about 1000 rounds down range in her entire life.

Note the big dangly tactical earrings.

Don

b7b976fb-1.jpg
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Even with that big hook nose, she's an attractive lass.
 
One of the epiphanies I had in the Instructor's course, was that the first thing you teach is not the Three Rules.

You teach the parts of a gun.

Because if you don't know what an action is, how can you keep it open? If you don't know where the muzzle is, how can it be kept in a safe direction?

I guess the Stormtroopers Of Death had it right: "Speak English or Die."

[laugh]
 
Revelationechc said:
Today I got home from work and put on a pair of shorts and tshirt and was playing with my son in the yard. My neighbor walked by and stopped for our usual chat about work, family, sports etc. My neighbor then notices my tshirt has a ruger logo on it and says "Do you have guns in your house?". I replied, "yes, a few of em". He seemed concerned for a moment and said "oh, I didn't know that, don't you think that's dangerous with kids in the house. Those things can go off at anytime"... I had to pause for a moment. I thought for a solid 30 sec about my response.

I asked him "does your TV turn on all by itself? does your car start on its own? do steaks grill themselves?"

He laughed.

I followed explaining the basics of a hand gun, shotgun and rifle- firing pins, safeties, slides, chambers. He seemed very interested. I went over basic safety and talked about Eddie Eagle and other youth safety programs (cause we both have young kids) and he was all about it. I'm taking him to the range with me this weekend for his first time shooting. I may have converted another.

Sometimes just a short conversation can make all the difference. Most MA Residents have no clue when it comes to guns and gun laws.
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I was loading up my jeep about a month ago and was wearing a black Wilson Combat t-shirt, which has a big 1911 on the back. When I heard a female voice behind me asking "if there were guns is the case I was loading! My jeep was in my garage (door was open) and my driveway is about 400+feet long.

I turned around and saw a rather nice looking but very preppy looking young woman who I did not know. I asked her if I was wearing a shirt with a tuna on the back if she would have bothered to ask me if I had a tuna in my jeep and she said no. I then asked her if I had a picture of a hot, sexy naked woman on my back would she come talk to me and she said "Oh goodness no"

I then asked her is she realized that she was trespassing and I had every right to call the police. Haven't seen her since that day.
 
The scary thing about neighbors and guns in MA is that if a neighbor feels intimidated by even the sight of you loading guns into your car, they can stretch the truth and have your LTC revoked, which allows them to take your guns.

No worries like that in most states. I used to test fire guns inside my barn on my 1/2 acre lot. I'm not reckless. The guns were fired straight down into a bucket of sand, on top of a concrete floor. But there was no worry about anyone calling the police because I was in full compliance with all laws. CT does not have specific distance requirements with respect to discharging a firearm, unless you are hunting. It only says it has to be safe. The cops knew I test fired guns there. It was discussed when I was getting my FFL. I brought the law to their attention and confirmed to them that it would not happen often and I would close all doors and windows as a courtesy to my neighbors, but that the only law I needed to pay attention was my town's noise ordinance. Which only applied from 8pm to 8am.

Never had any problems in my neighborhood of houses on 1/2 acre lots. Even with brake equipped .223 SBRs.

Don

Sec. 53-203. Unlawful discharge of firearms. Any person who intentionally, negligently or carelessly discharges any firearm in such a manner as to be likely to cause bodily injury or death to persons or domestic animals, or the wanton destruction of property shall be fined not more than two hundred fifty dollars or imprisoned not more than three months or both.
 
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This is a conundrum of Massprudence.

What we do is legal, and normal, but many see it as aberrant and dangerous?

When is it right to come out of the gun safe?

My son wears shooting shirts to school, teahers and frineds have been invited to the club. I set up information booths at local Friday night concerts. I have no Pro 2A stickers on my car, but my Trap vest is often hanging in the back. My letter carrier delivers The American Rifleman. A year ago, my son was on the cover of the WCL's Sportsman's news - and the mailman said that he wanted an autograph from "The famous kid - I've ben delivering his picture all over the neighborhood!" [laugh]

So....am I out of the gun safe? [thinking]
 
In God We Trust said:
The flip side of this conversation is that now the entire neighborhood knows you are a gun owner. Not the end of the world, but I would prefer that nobody knew about what I have in my house.
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True. In CT, I could care less. Gun ownership and the ability to carry openly or concealed are a right.

In MA, where even the possession of firearms is at the pleasure of your CLEO, I'd rather keep it on the QT. One of the reasons when we bought a place here, we looked for an attached garage. Its like the bat cave.
 
In God We Trust said:
The flip side of this conversation is that now the entire neighborhood knows you are a gun owner. Not the end of the world, but I would prefer that nobody knew about what I have in my house.
Click to expand...

I don't see this as a bad thing at all. I'm not ashamed of my ownership of or vested interest in arms. The moment that any of us show shame is the moment that anti's take the upper hand and the non's shift in the wrong direction. Guns do not define me or my family, but they certainly a part of our lives and heritage.

UPDATE: Neighbor and I were at the bus stop this morning together (our son's take the same bus to school). We were discussing times and what not this weekend and he said that his wife was a bit apprehensive (he went online and looked at some arms, I think he got the fever to buy). He said that his wife wasnt sure about "this whole thing, you know, with the kids in the house". I said, "think about this like you think about sex. Your kids are going to hear about and have experiences with sexual situations, would't you rather be the first one to discuss it with them? This way they will have the right perspective from a responsible adult. It's the same thing with guns. If they have no experience or direction from you they will only have the movies and TV to go off of, teach them to respect arms. Explain safety to them, tell them what to do if they see a gun unattended on the ground in the park or at a friends house."

He asked me to write this down for him so he can recite it to his wife later. We laughed. We are going to the range after our kids' soccer games on Saturday.
 
I'm not ashamed. I just want to be able to know who knows.

We had been arlington for about 3 months when a level 3 sex offender moved into the neighborhood. All of the neighbors knew I was a "gun guy". Many wanted to take a class with me to get their MA LtC, others just wanted to go shooting. If you ever meet me you will realize I'm about the least intimidating person you'd meet. And I've never lost my temper in my entire adult life. No joke.

So it was funny how all of a sudden the neighbors were making gun jokes. It was ironic that I had to ask them to tone it down, and not blab it. Once I told them that I wanted to control who knew, they all understood. I also had to remind them that gun ownership for defensive purposes, especially in a house with kids is a huge responsibility. Not a decision to be taken lightly.

Its a great neighborhood. Lots of kids, so we all share common desires as far as the neighborhood goes.

Some are very liberal (we're 1.1 miles from the Cambridge line) and probably generally anti. But strangely they all had an interest in firearms when child rapist Charles Lovejoy (son of prominent Boston pediatrician Dr. Frederick Lovejoy) moved into our neighborhood. He only raped his ex-girlfriend's 9 year old daughter. No worries for a neighborhood with 10 girls between the ages of 2 and 10 within 300 feet.

Fortunately the pen proved victorious. I didn't even need to launch my nuclear letter salvo at the parents threatening to protest outside their $5million house in Concord. Our polite calls and letters to the police, parole board, probation officer and his parents were enough to get him moved. Classic NIMBY, but I don't care.

Don
p.s if this were some guy with a stat rape conviction for sleeping with his 15 yr old girlfriend when he was 18, I could care less. But this was the real deal.
 
StevieP said:
We do, too. Used to be in the bedroom, and we'd wake up at 3am to find the TV had turned itself on. It has happened dozens of times.
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I got this app on my droid that makes it a remote for the cable box at home.

I can sit in my office at work and change the channel at home to weird stuff. The wife and kids still haven't figured it out. I'm dead when they do.
 
Revelationechc said:
My neighbor then notices my tshirt has a ruger logo on it and says "Do you have guns in your house?". I replied, "yes, a few of em". He seemed concerned for a moment and said "oh, I didn't know that, don't you think that's dangerous with kids in the house. Those things can go off at anytime"... I had to pause for a moment.
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nice work on being a nice dude. depending on my mood i would just tell them "eat shit." hopefully you can get the dude into shooting and you can have a blast (pun intended). i just don't really like most of my neighbors so that also would play into my aforementioned response. i'm sure most if not all of them have seen my glock hanging out of my holster when i'm going to or coming back from the range, and i am sure they know i don't keep a violin in the cases i lug through the building. whatever. i'm moving as soon as i can. i say hello to the neighbors i think are friendly and go about my business.
 
atilla said:
nice work on being a nice dude. depending on my mood i would just tell them "eat shit."
Click to expand...

I am the same way with people that are obviously anti-. The folks that are genuinely curious though, you really need to be a friendly face with them because we need all the friends we can get. Especially in MA. I don't really push this hobby on anyone but lots of times my "non" friends have come to me looking to learn about firearms and come to the range. It's a beautiful thing to start someone off correctly and get them into firearms firstly with the 10 commandments. Once they learn how to handle firearms properly and safely and you bring them to the range for first time, making a day out of blasting cans with a .22, we have a +1 for life.
 

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