Illegals get guns, and badges and arrest powers.

[Satcom]

I just don't understand the DACA supporters? So their parents broke multiple laws and we let the children benifit from it?
If their parents robbed a bank and made a fortune, were caught, and convicted. We don't allow the children to keep the money just because they were to young to know that their parents broke the law.

 

[Junior314]

So now we are arguing that non-citizens should hold police powers?

No wonder this country is f***ed.

I just don't understand the DACA supporters? So their parents broke multiple laws and we let the children benifit from it?
If their parents robbed a bank and made a fortune, were caught, and convicted. We don't allow the children to keep the money just because they were to young to know that their parents broke the law.

Because it is political.

"DACA Dreamers" become citizens and vote for the party that welcome them with open arms.

 

[REM870]

So you rob a bank . Your kids get to keep the money you stole! ? Got it!!!
Those on here saying why not they've been ,here they contribute., They don't know the country and language there parent (s) guardian came from .

Though. We have enough problems we don't need to add to it .

 

[Picton]

So now we are arguing that non-citizens should hold police powers?

No wonder this country is f***ed.

Speaking for myself, I'd be happiest if non-citizens didn't hold "police powers." Then again, I'm not a big fan of anyone holding "police powers."

Cops think they're special. They aren't, and we shouldn't feed into their delusion that they are.

 

[Junior314]

Speaking for myself, I'd be happiest if non-citizens didn't hold "police powers." Then again, I'm not a big fan of anyone holding "police powers."

Cops think they're special. They aren't, and we shouldn't feed into their delusion that they are.

No argument from me there.

I would just prefer police powers be reserved for citizens. After all we aren't ruled over by the Terran Federation.

 

[MGnoob]

What I don’t understand is is how can a city or state authorize people federally prohibited from owning firearms to own firearms? Shouldn’t the ATF just come in and arrest those people not for immigration status but just for being prohibited people in possession?

I forgot I already read the article this law needs to be repealed

An exception in the 1968 law, however, allows for illegal border crossers to possess guns “for the use of, the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof.” That means this federal provision technically provides any local or state government office, even if they don’t have a law like California’s, to arm illegal border crossers.

 

[PappyM3]

Speaking for myself, I'd be happiest if non-citizens didn't hold "police powers." Then again, I'm not a big fan of anyone holding "police powers."

Cops think they're special. They aren't, and we shouldn't feed into their delusion that they are.

They’re not special, but they do have special responsibilities.

 

[SHOCKNAWE]

L

Speaking for myself, I'd be happiest if non-citizens didn't hold "police powers." Then again, I'm not a big fan of anyone holding "police powers."

Cops think they're special. They aren't, and we shouldn't feed into their delusion that they are.

How would you suggest keeping order without anyone having police powers?

I understand in some places there is very little oder but I'm thinking it would be much worse if it was just a free for all, most of these defund the police torch bearers have changed their tune after they got what they wanted.

 

[Picton]

They’re not special, but they do have special responsibilities.

Which they frequently fail to uphold. Even if they're US citizens.

L

How would you suggest keeping order without anyone having police powers?

I understand in some places there is very little oder but I'm thinking it would be much worse if it was just a free for all, most of these defund the police torch bearers have changed their tune after they got what they wanted.

I don't want to defund. I don't have a problem with the concept of PDs, and I don't want to live in a place with no law and order at all. I've seen that and it's not great.

I want to return to a time when the police weren't militarized. I don't want them wearing fatigues, driving armored vehicles, and conducting no-knock raids on spurious warrants. I want their use of force standards to be the same as mine. I want an end to qualified immunity.

I don't think any of those things I want are impossible. But I think they're improbable, and I see it as just one more set of things that are destroying my country. Not all the nation's problems come from the left.

 

[SHOCKNAWE]

Which they frequently fail to uphold. Even if they're US citizens.



I don't want to defund. I don't have a problem with the concept of PDs, and I don't want to live in a place with no law and order at all. I've seen that and it's not great.

I want to return to a time when the police weren't militarized. I don't want them wearing fatigues, driving armored vehicles, and conducting no-knock raids on spurious warrants. I want their use of force standards to be the same as mine. I want an end to qualified immunity.

I don't think any of those things I want are impossible. But I think they're improbable, and I see it as just one more set of things that are destroying my country. Not all the nation's problems come from the left.

Then I'm with you on all that

 

[Satcom]

While I don't believe there should be zero police. I do believe we have gone to far in their powers and lack of consequences for their actions. Also, a lot of areas fall into disorder because we the citizens of our counties, towns and cities are not allowed to police ourselves. We all know who the bad people and crimials are in most cases. Yet we will be hunted down and charged criminally if we ever take action.

 

[PappyM3]

Which they frequently fail to uphold. Even if they're US citizens.

Yup, but that’s a separate problem.

 

[jkelly1229]

It's like I said, these were children brought here by their parents. They didn't have a say in the matter. But they did in fact grow up here, with zero ties to their country of origin. In every way except one, they're American taxpayers.

1. Military or Police, either works. Or even something Civil like the Peace Corps. The point is to demonstrate a willingness to serve on behalf of the nation they'd call home.

3. I was only a Resident Alien when I took the oath of enlistment, there was no conflict there. And Dominican Republic has dual citizenship, so I have the status in both.

I mean hey, we can deport them to a country (and l ikely even a language) they don't know, or we can give them proper status and let them contribute like they have been all along. People keep complaining about birthrates dropping, the solution couldn't be more obvious.

While i understand that token of the coin.

The real issue around daca is obama...
He can't do what he did and if it's allowed whats to stop biden from doing it on his way out the door to the 8 million he let in.

I get it...shitty situation and if they work and dont go on welfare I'm pretty pro immagrant.

I also like to try and look at it from every angle

 

[Agnotology]

Some ideas that strike me odd in here.

Citizenship seems to be conflated with loyalty. Loyalty is proven only when tested. Every day citizens betray this country, whether through their actions in public service or when they vote for unconstitutional laws whether by ignorance or whatever reason guides them. I don't think it is fair to question the "loyalty" of a person who has done nothing of their own power to warrant it.

The sins of the father should not stain the son. And the son can inherit that which he neither earned nor deserved.

A parent's actions, good or bad, should not be laid at the feet of the children. And the repercussions of those actions should be softened when able. I believe DACA did that, but failed when it created a loophole instead of making a determination for what should be done with those who have already arrived, not those who were coming.

Some of the rights we enjoy here in the US are not given as a result of citizenship, but are natural rights. We should remember that, even when dealing with those who illegally immigrated.

To the overall sentiment of non-citizens being police officers, I have to say I am against it. Growing up in this country is not proof or reason to believe they will support the constitution. Half the country already ignores parts as it suits them, and they have generations of citizenship.

I do believe 4 years of military service plus passing the citizen test my grandfather passed when coming from Crete is more of a show of faith and dedication to the country than the vast majority are willing to do. And should be more than sufficient to earn a fast track to citizenship.

 

[Dadstoys]

Did you even do any research at all before posting this? Like even googling "is Mohamed Noor a US citizen"?

Mohamed Noor IS A US CITIZEN. He became a citizen in 1999. He became a cop in 2015.

He was just a shitty, brutal cop.

He had a bunch of complaints against him before that incident.

The real failing here is not "OMG, Foreigners are scary", but rather "The police unions and thin blue line and qualified immunity are absolutely terrible."

 

[milktree]

View attachment 856875

If you have to lie to support your position, your position is indefensible.

 

[dcmdon]

There good people helped by DACA and then there are criminals. Let me explain.

I'll give two extreme examples to illustrate my point.

1) You were brought to the US as a 1 year old. You were raised in the US. Your first language is English. You have never been to Mexico in your life since you were brought to the US as an infant. You went to college in the US. You are now 25 and have a clean record. You are by all normal measures an American. But you are legally an illegal alien. DACA is the right thing to do. Deporting this "Mexican" into a country he knows little about and doesn't even speak the language very well is idiocy. Once this person is naturalized. There's no reason he shouldn't become a cop. He did nothing wrong.

2) You are a 25 year old who arrived in the US without papers 5 years ago after lying and saying you were 16. You still have a life, family, and connections in Mexico. DACA is a con job. Send him back.

 

[Mellero47]

Are we just assuming that they've been "contributing all along"?

Do they live here, work here, pay rent and bills and taxes here just like everyone else? Then they are contributing.

 

[pastera]

It's like I said, these were children brought here by their parents. They didn't have a say in the matter. But they did in fact grow up here, with zero ties to their country of origin. In every way except one, they're American taxpayers.

1. Military or Police, either works. Or even something Civil like the Peace Corps. The point is to demonstrate a willingness to serve on behalf of the nation they'd call home.

3. I was only a Resident Alien when I took the oath of enlistment, there was no conflict there. And Dominican Republic has dual citizenship, so I have the status in both.

I mean hey, we can deport them to a country (and likely even a language) they don't know, or we can give them proper status and let them contribute like they have been all along. People keep complaining about birthrates dropping, the solution couldn't be more obvious.

Don't care that they didn't have a choice, period.
This country didn't put them into their current situation and shouldn't be required to fix it.
I don't have a problem with them flying to their country of citizenship and then requesting legal immigration status - I'd have little trouble if we didn't hold their status as an invader against them if they came under age 10 and remained continuously.

We, the American people, owe them nothing. This isn't a hotel where you I u can just pay the bill (taxes) and get to stay.
My wife and her family waited a decade to come her legally.
Those that jumped the line just showed that they are willing to be a criminal if convenient. They children were very likely raised with that world view.

 

[pastera]

Let's see how this plays out. Plenty of shitty American citizen cops

How will we tell the difference?

 

[milktree]

How will we tell the difference?

Exactly. Immigration status doesn’t play a part.

 

[pastera]

Do they live here, work here, pay rent and bills and taxes here just like everyone else? Then they are contributing.

Okay - show me where they are making $100k/yr plus because as you go below that you are in negative taxation levels (receive way more than you pay in)

They should not be here therefore everything they do is gain from an illegal act - they have zero right to the proceeds (legal status or citizenship)

 

[milktree]

2) You are a 25 year old who arrived in the US without papers 5 years ago after lying and saying you were 16. You still have a life, family, and connections in Mexico. DACA is a con job. Send him back.

Does this one actually happen with enough frequency to be relevant to public policy?

I’m sure it happens more than zero, but making any policy with the assumption that there will be 100% compliance, or condemning one for less than that, is childish. Imagine ditching laws against assault because some people ignore it and do it anyway.

 

[pastera]

Exactly. Immigration status doesn’t play a part.

But they shouldn't gain from an illegal act.
Once a person turns 18, they are responsible for being continuing their illegal presence in the US.
If a person signs up for military service at 18 and has been in the country for at least 8 years then I don't have a problem with granting resident status.

Positions of legal trust and power should require that the person be a citizen - that doesn't ensure a good candidate but that only one requirement in many.

 

[bigben111435]

Some ideas that strike me odd in here.

Citizenship seems to be conflated with loyalty. Loyalty is proven only when tested. Every day citizens betray this country, whether through their actions in public service or when they vote for unconstitutional laws whether by ignorance or whatever reason guides them. I don't think it is fair to question the "loyalty" of a person who has done nothing of their own power to warrant it.

Since I raised the issue of loyalty,

i would surmise the government has built up these persons loyalty by supporting them from the day 1,

They may not betray our country, on the contrary, they will uphold whatever draconian order is given to them as long as the right person utters such.

and they just plain and simple are not citizens. so the idea that citizenship can be earned through this will also increase an individual's likelihood that they will sacrifice their own morals to acheive their goal. i.e. break the constitution


added at 815
after a nice walk out in the woods, i was thinking about this more, and specifically about judging one's loyalty. It is true that any American citizen may be disloyal and for any number of reasons.

you say, 'loyalty is proven only when tested', but who's helping you study for that test? planting your morality? i think most on this forum would agree that this is being cultivated more and more authoritarian and the ruling class/government as the moral.

place that in the context of giving dreamers jobs of authority.

Because, you are ultimately correct Agnotology, who are we to judge such a thing of an individual?

we can't, so I generalize in this case, as the government does using DACA

and i guess,

cops should be American citizens before they become cops
no group should have preference

 

[milktree]

Okay - show me where they are making $100k/yr plus because as you go below that you are in negative taxation levels (receive way more than you pay in)

Lol wut?

Median income in the US is something like $56k.

Only 18% of individuals and 35% of households make more than $100k.

Are you seriously saying that 82% of individuals aren’t contributing?

Where do you get the idea that people making under $100k are net negative?

Are you ignoring sales and real estate and excise and import and use and meal taxes?

 

[pastera]

Lol wut?

Median income in the US is something like $56k.

Only 18% of individuals and 35% of households make more than $100k.

Are you seriously saying that 82% of individuals aren’t contributing?

Where do you get the idea that people making under $100k are net negative?

Are you ignoring sakes and reels estate and excise and import and use and meal taxes?

Who pays, and doesn't pay, federal income taxes in the U.S.?

Since 2000, there has been a downward trend in average effective tax rates for all but the richest taxpayers.

www.pewresearch.org

Need to make at least 40k to pay net positive federal taxes - that's just bottom line not what it costs to actually pay for the services you use.
As an illegal you can't really work on the record so where do you get health insurance - at the emergency room with free care because you have no documented income.
And the use taxes that you listed are to cover specific areas where the person shouldn't even be in the country to consume those goods and services so paying taxes on them is not reason to grant status- if a person squats in your home but offers to pay your excess utilities from them being there does that allow them to stay?

 

[bigben111435]

Lol wut?

Median income in the US is something like $56k.

Only 18% of individuals and 35% of households make more than $100k.

Are you seriously saying that 82% of individuals aren’t contributing?

Where do you get the idea that people making under $100k are net negative?

Are you ignoring sales and real estate and excise and import and use and meal taxes?

fed income tax and associated fees is fed gov #1 money source
by a lot
throw in employers' payroll tax, and yep, a very few pay for most

 

[steven grammont]

Do they live here, work here, pay rent and bills and taxes here just like everyone else? Then they are contributing.

If they pay taxes they're "contributing" , living here means squat , rent means squat unless a person is actually earning $$ to pay the rent.

 

[Junior314]

@Mellero47 & @milktree

Whether they are productive or not aside…. Why in the world would we continue to incentivize illegal behavior in a time when nearly/over 10 million people have entered this country illegally in the past few years? Incentivization (is that a word?) is just as much to blame for the governments failure to secure the border.

This is not sustainable.