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Need advice on shooting a snub properly

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A while back I bought a SW36 snub. It's a nice gun in a lot of ways, and I really like the feel of it. But, I can't shoot it worth a damn! Any advice/confirmation of technique would be helpful.

First: most practice is DA only. Although the gun has a hammer spur, I figure for both practical and legal reasons, if I ever need to use it I'll probably be shooting DA. So...best to spend most of the practice time on DA shooting.

1 - Sight picture: A guy at the range said that the sight picture isn't supposed to be normal. I've been trying to line up the front sight and rear sights evenly. He said that the front sight should stick up above the other two. Basically, plant the front sight at COM on the target and make sure it's standing between the two rear sights, but don't worry about hiding the front sight down in the notch. That makes sense to me--it's a pretty natural way to aim the little gun--but it's against everything I learned in class.

2 - Trigger finger placement: What I learned in class was that the trigger finger should be placed on the trigger so that the trigger is between the last knuckle and the pad at the tip of the finger. My fingers are pretty long, and the DA trigger pull is pretty long. I have found that I need a lot more finger wrap-around or else the barrel will be shoved around as the pull is completed. I actually need to pull the trigger with the middle-third of my trigger finger, not the tip. Does this make sense? Am I simply learning a bad habit that I will have to unlearn?

3 - Point-of-aim: I'm left handed. The bullets tend to punch paper a few inches to the right of point of aim, and I've started aiming a few inches to the left to compensate. I assume that the gun shoots true, and that I'm just compensating for some sort of trigger jerk. Is this ok to do as long as the groups are tight? Or, again, am I just praticing something I'm going to have to unlearn? Another way of asking this: if I consistantly hit the center of the target this way, and I only compensate this way for this gun, does it really matter that my form might be bad? The gun is hard enough to shoot properly, and I'm not trying to win any awards, just have the bullets go where I want them to.

The gun has a nice heavy trigger weight. Nice might be the wrong adjective. Is it worth taking to a gunsmith to get a lighter pull?

Sorry about the long-winded questions. This is just bugging me to no end. I actually did a lot better at the range today, but I'm worried because I've started to work with what seems to be bad technique.

Moved to Training Techniques/JonJ
 
I think you may find question #2 and three are related. Sounds to me that you have way too much finger on that trigger. You should be shooting with just the "pad" of your finger. With as much finger in there as you have, you are probably shoving the barrel to the right on each shot. Fix #2 and I believe #3 will follow.
 
Jeremiah - 1st - good that you're only shooting DA. Good move.

2nd - while I'm not familiar with the sights on the model you have, my Rossi .38 has a very tiny sight picture. I have very small rear sights and can only allow the front sight to barely stick itself into the rear notch, otherwise, I'm off the center of the target. Also - with some guns, you need to figure out what works for you because they don't always "follow suit" with what's taught in class - again, it depends on the gun. As long as you've got the basics down pat, do what you need to do in order to hit center mass.

3rd - Finger placement and where your rounds are hitting. Being left handed and the rounds going to the right - then yes, you're using too much trigger finger. Keep trying to practice shooting with the pad of your finger, not closer to the knuckle. If you get used to shooting with too much finger (aiming more to the left), then you'll get in to that habit with every other gun you shoot. You don't want to do that. Practice dear, practice.

Trigger pull....well, if it seems like it's really hard and you're not hitting the target, then you might want to think about taking it to a gun smith - but I would suggest trying to shoot it the proper way (finger placement) first and get used to doing that before you make up your mind on the trigger job.
 
I rented a DAO Sig P226 the other day, and I was absolutely awful at it! 10lb trigger pull is alot (for me, but then I'm a newbie). I stopped shooting for a while and just did dry fire until I could keep the sights on target through the trigger pull. It helped quite a bit (i.e. i was hitting the paper), but I still needed LOTS of work. Give it a try, it will help you to see what you are doing wrong and when.
 
Sorry about not posting this to the right forum. Thanks for moving it JonJ.

Thanks for the advice guys.
So, it seems that a slightly different sight picture isn't the end of the world as long as the gun hits where I aim it. The rear sights are so small and shallow, it is easier to see the front sight if it sticks up a little higher.
Also, the trigger thing is bad and I shouldn't take a shortcut just because it's working at the moment. I'll put more work into getting the trigger right.

Really, repetetive dry firing would probably help the trigger issue a LOT. While some of it is the long travel distance, I bet a some of it is also that my finger muscles just aren't up to the task of making that pull smoothly. It would be great if I could spend time in front of the TV just dry firing to build up those muscles. But, then I'd have to tell the wife that I bought a 2nd gun :D . Tricky...

eta: I missed a sentance of context in the last paragraph
 
Jeremiah said:
Really, repetetive dry firing would probably help the trigger issue a LOT. While some of it is the long travel distance, I bet a some of it is also that my finger muscles just aren't up to the task of making that pull smoothly.

You got it bunkie. :D
 
Dont forget a good pistolsmith could smooth out and lighten that double action trigger pull for you. It could make all the difference in the world.
 
trigger pull

You could smooth out the pull but S&W's tend to be pretty smooth out of the box. A couple of thousand rounds will smooth it out anyway. I would NOT reduce the factory pull on any gun intended for self defense use. The lawyers that will decend on you, should you ever actually use the piece in a self defense, will actually salivate when ballistics testing shows a light trigger. It is for this reason I carry a hammerless dao revolver with the factory 12 pound trigger intact. I suggest lots of dry fire, s-l-o-w-l-y pulling through the trigger and maintaining sight picture. Don't try to speed things up until you can slowly and smoothly pull the trigger and not lose sight picture. Practice is the key and lots of it. A 3 inch sight radius with a grooved topstap in never going to be a target gun anyway. I would also suggest purchase of a 22 revolver like a S&W kit gun to practice live fire. You will practice more because it's much cheaper, less painful and the muzzle flash is not so distracting. Just my $.02
 
Is dry firing the S&W revolver ok? I think you need to use snap caps for that... maybe someone else can confirm. You could damage the firing pin (again, I think...)
 
matt said:
Is dry firing the S&W revolver ok? I think you need to use snap caps for that... maybe someone else can confirm. You could damage the firing pin (again, I think...)

Best advice?

Call S&W Tech Supt and get the word from the horse's mouth . . . then report back here what they tell you. I'm serious, they will give you the straight scoop.
 
Pilgrim, thanks for the answer.

I should have thought of that. OP should DL the manual for revolvers, I think you'll find it on the S&W website. If not you can order one (free) from the website.
 
matt said:
Is dry firing the S&W revolver ok? I think you need to use snap caps for that... maybe someone else can confirm. You could damage the firing pin (again, I think...)

You only need snap caps for semi's dearheart. Dry firing the revolver is fine.
 
Lynne,

Please clarify your statement on using snap caps on semi-autos. I have dry fired literally hundreds of thousands of times center- fire semi-autos (probably in excess of a million times over a forty year period) and have experienced firing pin breakage three times:

1. A Ruger P-91
2. A Colt Python
3. A Colt Detective Special

I have never experienced any problems with any S&W center-fire auto or revolver.

The MSP armorer states that dry firing SIGs without snap caps will not harm them in any way. I find nothing to prohibit that in any of SIG's Literature that I have.

Ruger states in owners manuals that dry firing will not harm their (sic) guns. The pistol that I was dry firing was a T&E weapon for the El Paso County (Colorado) Sheriff's Dept. and already had maybe 5,000 live rounds through it.

When I brought the Python to Mike LaRocca to have the firing pin replaced, he was surprised, he said "That isn't supposed to happen, but it does."

I understand that dry firing a rimfire and single action revolvers without a transfer bar safety could be harmful, but I am not familiar with any prohibitions on dry firing center fire semi-autos without snap caps.

Thanks,

Mark
 
BTW, you CAN safely dry fire a Walther P22. As long as you have a mag in it (mag disconnect) and the safety ON, the hammer will drop but NOT hit the firing pin.
 
Dry firing is the single MOST important thing that you can do to learn to shoot well. A lot of people that I know, and I agree with , state that one should dry fire about 100 times for every live shot. That does not mean just pulling the trigger. It does mean that every trigger pull would be a perfect shot, if shot live. Remember, that only perfect practice is acceptible. When you shoot a live round it is only to verify what you have been doing while you dry fire is correct.

I think that it was Bill Jordan that said that he could create an expert shot with a lot of dry fire a a single box of ammunition

Lynne
In response to your question, your can dry fire any center-fire handgun but not a rim-fire, like a .22. The reason that there is a problem with dry firing a rim-fire is that the firing pin will repeatedly hit the rim of the chamber and cause damage to both the firing pin and the chamber wall. About the only thing that I use training dummies for of reloading drills and MALF clearance drills.
 
Well then, I stand corrected. I've been told by a couple folks who've been shooting for a lot longer than I have (and in one case, almost as long as I've been on this earth) that you shouldn't dry fire semi's repeatedly because it could do some damage to the gun. They said use snap caps, so that's what I've done.

I don't doubt your words gentlemen, but if it's okay with you, I'll still use the snap caps. :D
 
While this won't work for your revolver, this is a drill my basic pistol instructor recomended for semi-autos:

Put a quarter on the slide by the front site and do your live fire drills. Any movement will make the quarter fall, so you are FORCED to pay attention to what you are doing, not just blindly pull the trigger.

Only works for guns with a flat surface on the top of the slide though...

Matt
 
Snubbie shooting...

is no differant than shooting any other handgun. The grip(two-handed) is the same. Finger placement on the trigger depends on whether you are shooting double or single action. Joint of the finger for double, middle of the pad for single. Beyond that stance, target aquisition, breathing and trigger squeeze. For myself, trigger sqeeze, followed by grip are the two most important. If you can do all 5 perfectly every time you can split hairs at 25 yards. Unfortunately, few can. It's like golf, you can never practice enough. I've found myself in, or around the bull one day, and not able to hit the ocean from the beach another day. :?
 
matt said:
While this won't work for your revolver, this is a drill my basic pistol instructor recomended for semi-autos:

Put a quarter on the slide by the front site and do your live fire drills. Any movement will make the quarter fall, so you are FORCED to pay attention to what you are doing, not just blindly pull the trigger.

Only works for guns with a flat surface on the top of the slide though...

Matt

Jim Crews had me doing drills with a penny laid across the front sight. Same idea, but means that top of barrel could be rounded as long as the front sight is flat. It is great practice to steady your trigger control.
 
Well then, I stand corrected. I've been told by a couple folks who've been shooting for a lot longer than I have (and in one case, almost as long as I've been on this earth) that you shouldn't dry fire semi's repeatedly because it could do some damage to the gun. They said use snap caps, so that's what I've done
Snap caps certainly won't hurt, but in most modern centerfire handguns they are unnecessary.
 
Hey guys, I thought I would mention that I shot the snub again about a week ago, and was much more satisfied with the result. I think a lot of it must be weak wrists. The first half of a box of .38 that I shot was accurate enough to inspire confidence out to 30 feet. Then, for the hell of it, I switched to a larger gun and shot a few cylinders of .357 magnum. That was great fun, but when I switched back to the .38, everything was off in a "jerking the trigger" direction. That sort of sustained fire problem an ok problem to have. I just want to know I can get the first 5-10 shots on target. After that, well, it probably won't be important... So, thanks for the advice. I'll keep practicing but I'll concentrate on getting the first 5 or 6 cylinders of practice right moreso than going through box after box in frustration.
 
Here's another recommendation, especially if you plan on using the snubbie for concealed carry - take Michael de Bethencourt's Snubbie Revolver class. Here's the link:

http://northeasterntacticalschools.com/maxsnub.html

Once you are satisfied the gun is mechanically sound, definitely call Michael and enroll in the next class. You won't regret it.

Ken
 
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