natural gas reliability of distribution system

[rep308]

My single point of failure to survive a bad situation would be a shut off or failure of delivery of natural gas through the grid in my neighborhood. I do not know anything about the distribution system and have never had a problem despite many power outages and many bad storms.

Can someone please comment on the general reliability of the natural gas delivery system in a typical neighborhood?

Sorry for such a basic question, I've just never thought of it before.

 

[kiver]

Same situation here...I am looking at putting in either a pellet or wood/coal stove in the near future. Since this power outage I have realized how vulnerable I am at this time

 

[terraformer]

Best way around that is a 500+ gallon LNP tank, preferably below ground, although above ground you may get one for free.

 

[doobie]

IF the SHTF totally, you probably have anywhere from a day or two or few hours. There are a lot of dependencies. Does the distributor go out immediately? Do they have backups? How many other people are drawing? What was the pressure in the lines before the distributor goes out....

I would assume you have a few hours at most in a critical situation.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

 

[matt]

My single point of failure to survive a bad situation would be a shut off or failure of delivery of natural gas through the grid in my neighborhood. I do not know anything about the distribution system and have never had a problem despite many power outages and many bad storms.

Can someone please comment on the general reliability of the natural gas delivery system in a typical neighborhood?

Sorry for such a basic question, I've just never thought of it before.

It's an EXCELLENT question. Maybe call your utility and ask them about it. If you do, please report back. I'd be interested because I have family on the gas grid.

Matt

 

[highlander]

I have had natural gas for the 22+ years in my house and have never had any problems with the delivery system. Back around 79 or 80 there was a shortage of natural gas that caused some problems but in all honesty that's the only incident in my area that I'm aware of.

 

[M1911]

I have had natural gas for the 22+ years in my house and have never had any problems with the delivery system. Back around 79 or 80 there was a shortage of natural gas that caused some problems but in all honesty that's the only incident in my area that I'm aware of.

We bought our house in Dec 1991. We had trouble with natural gas once, when the fitting at the meter failed shut. Other than that, we've never lost service.

We've had plenty of power outages and cable outages. We've never lost the phone or water.

 

[codenamepaul]

YOU- will be the source of reliability for you NG system if the SHTF.
1) find out how your pipeline is run and how many others around you are on it. If many are on it then supply will run low quick. Best to have some wood. Or sneak about and shut all the other residential valves-there will be a cap out front of the house.

2) Once you find out how the pipe runs, you will find the local pressure station. If it is big, there is likely a compressor. Most subdivision or neighborhood stations just have a pressure reducing valve set-up. Your best hope is one of these in a 'low use' area.

The pipeline pressure upstream of the reducing valve station runs 4-600psi in a 12-24" pipe for miles. Your house runs on about 2psi maximum on about a 3/4" pipe for a few yards. This means if you are the only user, there is alot of gas in that pipe. Use at will until the pressure runs low. When the pressure runs low, you will have to adjust the PRVs (pressure reducing valves) If you are handy, it is very easy to figure out. If you are sneaky, you can use bino's to get a model # and manufacturer off the local valve (just birdwatching you see) and download a cut sheet and it will have the instructions.

There will be 2 PRVs on the line with a bypass PRV. Reason is because it is a hell of a cut from 600 to 2, so they generally go from 600 to 150 or so and the second will make that cut to 2psi. the gauge upstream of the second PRV reading over 150 tells you that the upstream regulator has failed. These are ultra reliable, so this is unlikely.

Bottom line is this-CCW on the adjustment increases pressure. This is likely where you are going. The adjustment is under a cap on the top of the valve. It is either a standard screwdriver or crescent wrench to adjust. The valve actuator looks like a flying saucer and may be mounted horizontally.

 

[terraformer]

YOU- will be the source of reliability for you NG system if the SHTF.
1) find out how your pipeline is run and how many others around you are on it. If many are on it then supply will run low quick. Best to have some wood. Or sneak about and shut all the other residential valves-there will be a cap out front of the house.

2) Once you find out how the pipe runs, you will find the local pressure station. If it is big, there is likely a compressor. Most subdivision or neighborhood stations just have a pressure reducing valve set-up. Your best hope is one of these in a 'low use' area.

The pipeline pressure upstream of the reducing valve station runs 4-600psi in a 12-24" pipe for miles. Your house runs on about 2psi maximum on about a 3/4" pipe for a few yards. This means if you are the only user, there is alot of gas in that pipe. Use at will until the pressure runs low. When the pressure runs low, you will have to adjust the PRVs (pressure reducing valves) If you are handy, it is very easy to figure out. If you are sneaky, you can use bino's to get a model # and manufacturer off the local valve (just birdwatching you see) and download a cut sheet and it will have the instructions.

There will be 2 PRVs on the line with a bypass PRV. Reason is because it is a hell of a cut from 600 to 2, so they generally go from 600 to 150 or so and the second will make that cut to 2psi. the gauge upstream of the second PRV reading over 150 tells you that the upstream regulator has failed. These are ultra reliable, so this is unlikely.

Bottom line is this-CCW on the adjustment increases pressure. This is likely where you are going. The adjustment is under a cap on the top of the valve. It is either a standard screwdriver or crescent wrench to adjust. The valve actuator looks like a flying saucer and may be mounted horizontally.

Or you could just get a big LNG tank (underground is possible) and not have to screw around with trying to suck the last little bit out of the utility's pipe, which frankly can escape any number of ways and where there may not be enough in the system to make your MacGyver moves worth a hill of beans.

 

[codenamepaul]

And tell us, oh great one-how it is possible to have 1) access to delivered LNG and 2) a permitted tank for residential use. Get a grip!

 

[terraformer]

And tell us, oh great one-how it is possible to have 1) access to delivered LNG and 2) a permitted tank for residential use. Get a grip!

You are kidding, right? People have propane tanks everywhere. My across the street neighbor has one, a house in middleton we were looking at buying has one. My brother in law worked for Blue Rhino and now works for another gas company and I assure you he used to put them in all the time. The propane companies... Just noticed it should have been LPG, not LNG... Anyhow, the point remains, there is less of a reliance on utilities for delivery of LPG than natural gas to the home. If one point fails, you can go somewhere else. If the pipeline to your home fails, then you are screwed.

PS: Normally I don't get into it with folks over attitudes, but most normal people would have simply said, "you mean LPG, not LNG right???" and moved on. Instead you were a prick about it. Go screw.

 

[codenamepaul]

You can't read and I'm the prick? NATURAL GAS!!!!!!!!!!!!! not liquified petroleum gas. So-no-the point does not remain. Get back on the subject. If not, then happily carry your non-McGuyver ass off to somewhere you can contribute something useful.

 

[terraformer]

You can't read and I'm the prick? NATURAL GAS!!!!!!!!!!!!! not liquified petroleum gas. So-no-the point does not remain. Get back on the subject. If not, then happily carry your non-McGuyver ass off to somewhere you can contribute something useful.

I can read fine. In my post from a week ago, I should have said propane, when I said natural gas. Since propane is stored in liquified form (where NG isn't safely and easily, which queued me in that I made the mistake in the first place, I said LNG should have been LPG in my original post. I was correcting my original post.
How is it not on subject when I suggested he get a large, preferably buried propane storage tank to run the damned generator from?

 

[bsimardjr]

There will be 2 PRVs on the line with a bypass PRV. Reason is because it is a hell of a cut from 600 to 2, so they generally go from 600 to 150 or so and the second will make that cut to 2psi. the gauge upstream of the second PRV reading over 150 tells you that the upstream regulator has failed. These are ultra reliable, so this is unlikely.

Bottom line is this-CCW on the adjustment increases pressure. This is likely where you are going. The adjustment is under a cap on the top of the valve. It is either a standard screwdriver or crescent wrench to adjust. The valve actuator looks like a flying saucer and may be mounted horizontally.

The regulators stated above will not be accessible to you as they are either in a locked regulator station or a locked regulator vault in the ground. And they are nothing anybody wants to mess with.

 

[P-14]

My home is all electric. I won't worry. I'll just be happy as I fire up the generator.

 

[codenamepaul]

How is it not on subject when I suggested he get a large, preferably buried propane storage tank to run the damned generator from?

Because the title is?????????

 

[codenamepaul]

The regulators stated above will not be accessible to you as they are either in a locked regulator station or a locked regulator vault in the ground. And they are nothing anybody wants to mess with.

Unless it's the end of the world and you've little choice otherwise.

 

[n1zfg]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

If you are going count on something, have at least one backup system or protocol (if not several).

There are also no guarantees that any potential provider, from day to day, will continue to deliver. Service interruptions from any and all of your service providers should be expected from time to time, and you should therefore have contingency plans in place.

I recommend implementing an alternative heating and cooking plan to use in the event everything goes out. Wood, coal, or pellet stoves are great if you can do it. I have had my camp stove parked on top of the range in my kitchen. Indoor rated propane heaters (with sufficient bottles) are also not bad ideas either. And dare I say that neither snow nor rain, nor gloom of night has kept me from grilling that steak.

 

[Bob P]

Same situation here...I am looking at putting in either a pellet or wood/coal stove in the near future. Since this power outage I have realized how vulnerable I am at this time

Just a thought, but if your prime reason for picking a stove is a SHTF scenario, you may want to avoid a pellet stove - IIRC they require electricity to operate and once the supply of pellets dries up...

Wood's your best bet for locally available fuel.

 

[bsimardjr]

My single point of failure to survive a bad situation would be a shut off or failure of delivery of natural gas through the grid in my neighborhood. I do not know anything about the distribution system and have never had a problem despite many power outages and many bad storms.

Can someone please comment on the general reliability of the natural gas delivery system in a typical neighborhood?

Sorry for such a basic question, I've just never thought of it before.

To answer the original question. I work for a natural gas utility and our system is pretty reliable, back up generators at our regulator stations, bypasses if necessary. There are LNG plants as backups and for when demand is high. Some areas have low pressure systems about a 1/4 pound of pressure, some are as high as 60 pounds. Most systems are feed from more than one direction so if there is a lack of pressure in one area another area can be raised to help the other area.

 

[codenamepaul]

Been in the power business 15 years and only had gas go out once in all that time. If the SHTF no one will be going to work at the utilities, so whatever is left is left.

N1 hit the nail. My home heat is wood, oil, and coal, all in the same firebox. No power needed, although it doesn't do as well without the fan.

 

[biff44]

Natural gas, as long as it gets supplied, is pretty reliable. If the tankers stop coming into Boston, that might be a different situation though.

Natural gas does have a problem for new installations. When they disturb the soil to run the line for the first time, that trench can conduct gas right into the house's basement. So if there is a leak in the street 2 blocks away, it can travel up along the pipe, up the disturbed earth on your property, and into your house. I do not believe they ever found a solution to this problem. Of course, after a while the soil compacts and you are ok again.

The 2nd problem with natural gas is if there is ever a high overpressure--rare, but it does happen sometimes. Turns your range into a flame thrower.

The problem with bottled propane is that the water vapor in the tank can collect in the feed pipe, freeze, burst the pipe, and turn into a flame thrower too. You want that tank far from your house.

 

[bsimardjr]

Natural gas, as long as it gets supplied, is pretty reliable. If the tankers stop coming into Boston, that might be a different situation though.

That is only LNG. Natural gas also comes from other sources not just the LNG tankers.

Natural gas does have a problem for new installations. When they disturb the soil to run the line for the first time, that trench can conduct gas right into the house's basement. So if there is a leak in the street 2 blocks away, it can travel up along the pipe, up the disturbed earth on your property, and into your house. I do not believe they ever found a solution to this problem. Of course, after a while the soil compacts and you are ok again.

With the new trench that you speak of it would mostly vent straight up by the fact that Natural Gas is lighter than air. Not much of a chance that it would travel 2 blocks. But frost and other variables can change things. All new services are outside of the foundation, no penetration through the foundation. But there are for sewer and water.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Natural gas does have a problem for new installations. When they disturb the soil to run the line for the first time, that trench can conduct gas right into the house's basement. So if there is a leak in the street 2 blocks away, it can travel up along the pipe, up the disturbed earth on your property, and into your house. I do not believe they ever found a solution to this problem. Of course, after a while the soil compacts and you are ok again.

I was present when new gas service was added to a local gun club. The flexible pipe ran from the street to about a foot away from the building, and attached to a vertical pipe that connects to the meter. A solid pipe runs from the meter into the building. The trench did not run under, or even up to, the building. Even if the trench was full of gas, it would not make it into the building. I may be missing something, but it just doesn't make sense the gas can travel along the trench in an "outside meter" configuration.

 

[biff44]

building foundatons are by no means gas tight. If the ground near one of your basement wall has a gas leak, it is likely to go straight on in.

 

[kiver]

Just a thought, but if your prime reason for picking a stove is a SHTF scenario, you may want to avoid a pellet stove - IIRC they require electricity to operate and once the supply of pellets dries up...

Wood's your best bet for locally available fuel.

SHTF is not my prime reason...Paying $750 a month for heat is my primary reason...I live in the city and can at least store a winters supply in the basement. Many pellet stoves can run on battery or have cranks....Having no real access to wood would put me in a bind...however if it was a SHTF...I would probably be in my car head for VT

 

[namedpipes]

Of course the bottom line is, in any "normal" short term disaster the natural gas service will NOT be affected so don't worry about it. Your above/below ground propane tanks will last as long as they will last as well.

In a long-term SHTF disaster, it STILL doesn't matter. You're GOING to be heating with a woodstove and reading by candlelight, if you're lucky.

Pretending that the world is still normal and thinking the lights will always go on when you flick the switch or the house will always be warm or cool when you twist the dial is being shortsighted, and being shortsighted then will get you dead.

If you're planning for short term, plan for short term. If you're planning for long term, plan for long term. Never the twain shall meet.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Independence from all outside utilities should be your ultimate goal.

In a svere earthquake, you can almst count on water and gas mains being disrupted.

Any fuel source on site is better than depending on utilities being viable in a disaster.