Noted. Long day.
-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
Multiple victims in Oxford High School shooting, Oakland County Sheriff confirms
- Thread starter mikeyp
- Start date
Lol. Yup. 5A.
Ask a lawyer, they'll tell you the same thing as they sue the school system into oblivion. An administrator who knowingly runs that risk is going to get fired, and rightly so.
www.legalmatch.com
"School law" courses are fun!
Ask a lawyer, they'll tell you the same thing as they sue the school system into oblivion. An administrator who knowingly runs that risk is going to get fired, and rightly so.
Due Process and School Suspension or Expulsion
Every student has the right to education. All long-term suspensions and expulsions must be evaluated in a formal hearing. Visit us to learn more.
"School law" courses are fun!
Problem is, if they had searched the backpack, based on the known pre-shooting facts and DIDN'T find a gun, 1/2 of this forum would have exploded in 'those Nazis' posts towards the administrators. That 1/2 number might be a little low.
The administrators are almost in a no-win situation. They search and find nothing, they get sued. They don't search, kids die. I sub in a school, the stuff I hear makes me surprised this stuff doesn't happen more often.
QFT.
Although, I've never heard of an administrator getting sued for a search. The legal standard for searching a student's property on campus is so low as to be nonexistent, in most states. But as I've pointed out a few times, just 'cause it's legal doesn't mean it's wise. No community tolerates a principal who cries wolf too often.
Catch-22
AHM
NES Member
You keep fixating on "suspensions or expulsions" as if:
- Anyone wants to neutralize a school shooter by suspending or expelling them.
- Any parents care more about some school employee's job than the safety of their children.
they can Zoom in to class from jail.
AHM
NES Member
Cultural reference:
"Hat tip" is the standard idiom for crediting the source of a news item
on Instapundit group blog.
In this case, I overheard producer Taylor Cormier tell Howie
over the interstudio intercom during a commercial break
that the Oxford cops couldn't find the shooter's parents to arrest them.
And I heard Howie's "Wow!" in reaction.
I'm mostly responding to people wondering why the shooter was allowed to go back to class after the parent meeting. Again, I'm not knowledgeable about school law in Michigan. But in MA, it works like this:
ANY attempt to remove a kid from instruction requires due process, as spelled out in the student handbook. These handbooks are all sent to DESE and need to comply with MA law. Removal like that is a "suspension." An expulsion is completely different, and I'm the last person to be suggesting that here.
A complaint from another parent is not enough to get a kid suspended, nor should it be. But it certainly might get the kid called to the office and his bag searched. (A number of parents in this case seem to be claiming they kept their kids out of school over what this perp was posting).
There is (in most states) a limit to how many days a kid can be suspended from school before added due process is required. The school goes to GREAT pains to make sure their ducks are in a row in cases like those. If a kid is arrested and charged with a felony, at least in MA, the suspension can legally become indefinite.
Zoom is not an issue. A suspended kid is deprived of instruction. That's what brings 5A into this, according to the courts.
Chevy 2 65
NES Member
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
namedpipes
NES Member
Lol. Yup. 5A.
Ask a lawyer, they'll tell you the same thing as they sue the school system into oblivion. An administrator who knowingly runs that risk is going to get fired, and rightly so.
Due Process and School Suspension or Expulsion
Every student has the right to education. All long-term suspensions and expulsions must be evaluated in a formal hearing. Visit us to learn more.
"School law" courses are fun!
The school may/may not have such authority. I suppose since you're a teacher, you'd know, just like cops are all experts on law.
However, the school will NOT incur liability because they forwarded information to police that a student might be a danger because (fill in the reasons). It's then on the PD to investigate or ignore the issue and THEN if the kid blows a gasket the school isn't left looking incompetent. Sitting on the information, IMO would implicate the school administration in a shooting.
The school absolutely can search the kid's locker whenever they feel like it.
As far as searching the kid's bag, they can do that with reasonable suspicion. As the parents were called in to discuss apparent threats, well I'm no expert but that sounds like reasonable suspicion to me.
CatSnoutSoup
NES Member
The charges against the parents and emerging facts driving them have the potential of being used by politicians as a springboard to give 'Mom Demand Ass Action' something from their infringement wishlist, that being mandatory liability insurance for gun owners.
MaverickNH
NES Member
In Already-Overcharged Michigan H.S. Shooting, Parents Now Charged with Manslaughter | National Review
In the face of public outrage, prosecutors are seeking to write the law rather than enforcing it. Their overreach serves no one’s long-term interests.
www.nationalreview.com
"According to the charges filed, in the hours before the shooting they had been urgently summoned to the school, because a teacher had discovered that Crumbley had drawn images of a gun that had been fired at a fallen body, with the added inscriptions, “Blood everywhere” and “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.”
This was probably the tip-off. Yes, any school administrator or staff mental health councilor is not going to risk their job making a call to expel or suspend a kid without strong written policy from the School Board.
I expect Michigan will move to enact a Red Flag law this year, so that almost anyone in a position of authority can Red Flag someone and the police will get a cookie-cutter ERPO from a judge in hours. In the Oxford case, hours may not have been soon enough to interrupt the chain of events.
Did we have fewer rights that were infringed more often in the 70s when I was in 6th-12th grades? Maybe - but there’s far more school authorities infringing rights now, more parents driving litigious school-community relationships, and more lawyers litigating to no good end. With the battle over whether parents or government have the right to determine educational ideology growing hotter, the kids are left in the crossfire - figuratively and literally.
lancecolonel
NES Member
Could the school have proposed a bag and locker search with the parents present for it? Could they have said “if you refuse you must take your son home.”?
VetteGirlMA
NES Member
In Already-Overcharged Michigan H.S. Shooting, Parents Now Charged with Manslaughter | National Review
In the face of public outrage, prosecutors are seeking to write the law rather than enforcing it. Their overreach serves no one’s long-term interests.
"According to the charges filed, in the hours before the shooting they had been urgently summoned to the school, because a teacher had discovered that Crumbley had drawn images of a gun that had been fired at a fallen body, with the added inscriptions, “Blood everywhere” and “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.”
This was probably the tip-off. Yes, any school administrator or staff mental health councilor is not going to risk their job making a call to expel or suspend a kid without strong written policy from the School Board.
I expect Michigan will move to enact a Red Flag law this year, so that almost anyone in a position of authority can Red Flag someone and the police will get a cookie-cutter ERPO from a judge in hours. In the Oxford case, hours may not have been soon enough to interrupt the chain of events.
Did we have fewer rights that were infringed more often in the 70s when I was in 6th-12th grades? Maybe - but there’s far more school authorities infringing rights now, more parents driving litigious school-community relationships, and more lawyers litigating to no good end. With the battle over whether parents or government have the right to determine educational ideology growing hotter, the kids are left in the crossfire - figuratively and literally.
This is beginning to look like North Korea with every passing day. It won't be just a criminal that commits a crime and goes to jail but parents, grandparents, cousins, uncles, send them all to the gulags.
You know I'm really shocked reading the comments on here "store guns safely" etc etc. How about let people live their own lives they want to in the privacy of their own homes? When did that stop being a thing?
Reading the comments here it's almost like reading an anti-gun Bloomberg position paper, you know turn the entire countries gun laws into Massachusetts lol.
namedpipes
NES Member
You know what, if you have kids you ought to keep your guns locked up. If you have kids (or others living with you) that have "issues" then you REALLY ought to keep your guns locked up.
Should there be a law compelling that? No.
slugworth
NES Member
Parents are in custody.
www.foxnews.com
Michigan shooting suspect Ethan Crumbley's parents plead not guilty to involuntary manslaughter charges
The parents of Michigan school shooting suspect Ethan Crumbley each pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter charges Saturday morning after being taken into custody in Saturday's predawn hours.
www.foxnews.com
fshalor
NES Member
Yes. If the "text messages from mommy" are to be believed. I keep seeing them in articles mention them in the same paragraph as spoof accounts though. So lawl?
LittleCalm
NES Member
Yes. It appears that the parents are morons. Kid is unstable so you buy him a gun and then don’t lock it up and keep ammo away. What could go wrong?
slugworth
NES Member
The parents obviously knew there was some issues with his kid and still gave him access to a handgun. Or better yet bought him one for Christmas.
Jennifer Crumbley referred to the gun as their son's "new Christmas present" in a social media post, McDonald said during Friday's news conference. She added that the gun was stored unlocked in a drawer in the parents' bedroom.
The day before the shooting, an Oxford High School teacher reported Ethan Crumbley, a sophomore at the school, after they spotted him using his phone to search for ammunition, the prosecutor said.
School officials left a voicemail and email for Jennifer Crumbley, who did not respond, according to McDonald. But Crumbley sent a text message to her son that said, "LOL I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught."
Then, on the morning of the shooting, the prosecutor said, Crumbley's teacher found a drawing on Ethan's desk of a handgun, bullet and shooting victim, with the words "blood everywhere" and "the thoughts won't stop, help me."
Disturbed, the teacher informed school authorities, who called both James and Jennifer Crumbley to the school; they were told they would be required to seek counseling for their son.
"Both James and Jennifer Crumbley failed to ask if their son had his gun with him or where his gun was located, and failed to inspect his backpack for the presence of the gun, which he had with him," McDonald said.
The parents "resisted the idea" of Ethan leaving school at that time, McDonald said. Afterward, Crumbley returned to class. Just before 1 p.m., he entered a bathroom wearing a backpack, then came out with the pistol in his hand and began shooting, authorities have said.
"When the news of the active shooter at Oxford High School had been made public, Jennifer Crumbley texted to her son at 1:22 p.m., 'Ethan, don't do it,' " McDonald said. Fifteen minutes later, James Crumbley called 911 to report that the gun was missing and that it may be his son who committed the school shooting.
Jennifer Crumbley referred to the gun as their son's "new Christmas present" in a social media post, McDonald said during Friday's news conference. She added that the gun was stored unlocked in a drawer in the parents' bedroom.
The day before the shooting, an Oxford High School teacher reported Ethan Crumbley, a sophomore at the school, after they spotted him using his phone to search for ammunition, the prosecutor said.
School officials left a voicemail and email for Jennifer Crumbley, who did not respond, according to McDonald. But Crumbley sent a text message to her son that said, "LOL I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught."
Then, on the morning of the shooting, the prosecutor said, Crumbley's teacher found a drawing on Ethan's desk of a handgun, bullet and shooting victim, with the words "blood everywhere" and "the thoughts won't stop, help me."
Disturbed, the teacher informed school authorities, who called both James and Jennifer Crumbley to the school; they were told they would be required to seek counseling for their son.
"Both James and Jennifer Crumbley failed to ask if their son had his gun with him or where his gun was located, and failed to inspect his backpack for the presence of the gun, which he had with him," McDonald said.
The parents "resisted the idea" of Ethan leaving school at that time, McDonald said. Afterward, Crumbley returned to class. Just before 1 p.m., he entered a bathroom wearing a backpack, then came out with the pistol in his hand and began shooting, authorities have said.
"When the news of the active shooter at Oxford High School had been made public, Jennifer Crumbley texted to her son at 1:22 p.m., 'Ethan, don't do it,' " McDonald said. Fifteen minutes later, James Crumbley called 911 to report that the gun was missing and that it may be his son who committed the school shooting.
MaverickNH
NES Member
Prosecution and Prejudice | National Review
We have prosecutors who won’t prosecute the ‘wrong’ people for their crimes and prosecutors hell-bent on prosecuting the ‘right’ people for what they symbolize.
www.nationalreview.com
"…we have prosecutors who won’t prosecute the “wrong” people for their crimes, and prosecutors hell-bent on prosecuting the “right” people for what they symbolize. They tend to be the same prosecutors. And unlike rule-of-law prosecutors, what moves them is not evidence."
Reminds me of those WWI movies where the French would pick a few soldiers at random and execute them to punish a battalion for retreating without orders. Rather than finding the right plaintiffs and bring a case through the courts in hopes of change, the progressives demand people be prosecuted and punished for legal actions they oppose, in a court of public opinion, by the liberal media.
Sure, heads on pikes sends a message, but when you behead those who have not violated the acknowledged norms and standards, you simply rule by fear and intimidation rather than by rule of law.
Chevy 2 65
NES Member
Are the parents stupid, well, yes. What law did they break? What are they being charged with?
The Court ruled that the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution confers an individual right to possess a firearm for traditionally lawful purposes such as self-defense. It also ruled that two District of Columbia provisions, one that banned handguns and one that required lawful firearms in the home to be disassembled or trigger-locked, violate this right.
The Court ruled that the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution confers an individual right to possess a firearm for traditionally lawful purposes such as self-defense. It also ruled that two District of Columbia provisions, one that banned handguns and one that required lawful firearms in the home to be disassembled or trigger-locked, violate this right.
Not to mention, suspensions and expulsions lower funding and school ratings. The school my kids are in has a waiting list that won't be filled before those kids have kids in the school. Any body kicked out of the school would be replaced the literal next day.
It's quite a shark to jump to go from 'hey, guns shouldn't be readily available' to North Korea. There's a lot of moving parts to this story, it's not a single brush piece of art.
The problem from here:
Search and Seizure - NYRA
The Fourth Amendment of the Constitution guarantees the right of everyone “to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures.” This means that if the government (and government institutions like public schools) wants to search your belongings...
www.youthrights.org
I can't find any actual case law on the first page of google, which is exactly how far I looked. But this article implies that lawsuits are a thing if Principal McPrincipalface goes through a kid's bag.
I don't know where all our tax money for schools goes, but it certainly isn't the schools. One decent lawsuit would shut down most of the schools around here depending on where the district comes into it. Some districts would go down.
edit, well, I should say, maybe all the money goes to the schools, but they are underfunded by what ever means is causing it.
The parents can live the way they want in their own home and they can face the repercussions for their irresponsible actions. Based on the current news they purchased a handgun and provided unfettered access to it for a mentally ill minor AND knew the gun was missing the day of the shooting. How about we ask parents to start parenting in their own home?
Similar threads
