Moving to a non-NFA Friendly State, Leaving NFA items in home state. Duty to notify?

steve8140

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I heard that too. But why are MA FFLs prevented from transferring them?
Because by MA law a rifle has a 16” barrel. A SBR is shorter which makes them a “firearm” and subject to the handgun roster. Except everything is over the 50oz. Weight.

And because MA sucks.

Ive heard and read both side of the argument wether a SBR is required to follow the AWB and all I can say is to make up your own mind with your own risk management.
 

PappyM3

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I cannot even get someone from my bank on the phone these days. And I give them money.
You didn’t answer his question. Did you try calling, or emailing? I’ve found the Boston office to actually be fairly responsive. I know you’ve gotten your answer already, but just a heads up.
 

PappyM3

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Selling NFA items is really not worth the hassle, SBRs and Silencers maybe fetch twenty-five cents on the dollar.
There’s some dude on gunbroker who has been trying to sell a Preban PWA SBR for $3.5k for a long time now. Hell, I think he originally tried selling it for over $4k for a while. …😆
 

Asaltweapon

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Because by MA law a rifle has a 16” barrel. A SBR is shorter which makes them a “firearm” and subject to the handgun roster. Except everything is over the 50oz. Weight.

And because MA sucks.

Ive heard and read both side of the argument wether a SBR is required to follow the AWB and all I can say is to make up your own mind with your own risk management.
I didn't care about MA law on mine. It now takes up permanent residency elsewhere so I really DGAF.
Always figured if "the man" was inside my safe I got much bigger problems than a few "features".
 

CStirling8011

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I can't speak to moving across state lines but when I contacted the boston atf branch I was told that you need to inform them because my form 1 states that I need to inform them if there are any changes at all to the form including my address. When I spoke to the NFA branch out of virginia they told me that I needed form approval prior to even moving in state.
 
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I can't speak to moving across state lines but when I contacted the boston atf branch I was told that you need to inform them because my form 1 states that I need to inform them if there are any changes at all to the form including my address. When I spoke to the NFA branch out of virginia they told me that I needed form approval prior to even moving in state.
So by that logic, I would fill out the form asking to bring my supressors into MA which, by law, they would be required to deny? What’s the point there?

If there’s a change of address form for the feds, I am unaware of it. To be clear, we are talking about a form 5320.20 which is a request for INTERstate transport.
 

drgrant

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So by that logic, I would fill out the form asking to bring my supressors into MA which, by law, they would be required to deny? What’s the point there?

There are no 5320s for suppressors, ever, btw. NOT required by federal law. Some people do it for some f***o reason, "because they think all NFA devices are under the same regs" (and the ATF actually plays along with this "game" and approves it, if allowed) but if you actually read US code it is abundantly clear to me that it is not required to file a 5320 for a can once you have a stamp.
 
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There are no 5320s for suppressors, ever, btw. NOT required by federal law. Some people do it for some f***o reason, "because they think all NFA devices are under the same regs" (and the ATF actually plays along with this "game" and approves it, if allowed) but if you actually read US code it is abundantly clear to me that it is not required to file a 5320 for a can once you have a stamp.
That’s a good bit of info. ATF “requests” you to file the 5320 for suppressors after you move.

Which, to me, seemed counter-intuitive when the whole point of the form is to request permission to move the items.
 

drgrant

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That’s a good bit of info. ATF “requests” you to file the 5320 for suppressors after you move.

Which, to me, seemed counter-intuitive when the whole point of the form is to request permission to move the items.

I would still suggest poking through the relevant sections of US code, but I remember it being something like a statement saying "a notification is required for any Machine gun, Short Barreled Rifle, Short Barreled Shotgun, Destructive device....." but theres a fun omission of suppressor in that statement under the law.
 

JRT

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I can't speak to moving across state lines but when I contacted the boston atf branch I was told that you need to inform them because my form 1 states that I need to inform them if there are any changes at all to the form including my address. When I spoke to the NFA branch out of virginia they told me that I needed form approval prior to even moving in state.
Exhibit A on why you should never call the f***ing ATF.
 

JRT

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I would still suggest poking through the relevant sections of US code, but I remember it being something like a statement saying "a notification is required for any Machine gun, Short Barreled Rifle, Short Barreled Shotgun, Destructive device....." but theres a fun omission of suppressor in that statement under the law.
This is correct, there are no instructions for an instate move on the 5320.20 because it’s not required. It’s never required on a suppressor for any move.
 

CStirling8011

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Exhibit A on why you should never call the f***ing ATF.
I was always told if you want answers you go to the source. I respect anyones choice to inform or not but I don’t have to tens of thousands of dollars for a lawyer if I get jammed up.
 

drgrant

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I was always told if you want answers you go to the source. I respect anyones choice to inform or not but I don’t have to tens of thousands of dollars for a lawyer if I get jammed up.
Problem is that's not how this usually works. Remember there's pretty much zero chance of using estoppel defense based on an easily forgotten phone conversation. Not to mention agencies like the ATF and EOPS have a tendency to make shit up (or pitch the "this is what we prefer, even if the law doesn't" ) spiel even if it doesn't correspond with the written law. The ATF was even tricked by EOPS in the past into doing things against MA gun owners that were not supported by state or federal law. This is the kind of stuff that keeps good firearms attorneys busy......
 

CStirling8011

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Problem is that's not how this usually works. Remember there's pretty much zero chance of using estoppel defense based on an easily forgotten phone conversation. Not to mention agencies like the ATF and EOPS have a tendency to make shit up (or pitch the "this is what we prefer, even if the law doesn't" ) spiel even if it doesn't correspond with the written law. The ATF was even tricked by EOPS in the past into doing things against MA gun owners that were not supported by state or federal law. This is the kind of stuff that keeps good firearms attorneys busy......
I won’t dispute any of that but the form 1 clearly states that any change of address or description requires that the ATF be notified in writing.
 

JRT

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I won’t dispute any of that but the form 1 clearly states that any change of address or description requires that the ATF be notified in writing.
You're lying or you suck at reading, it literally says any interstate move and specifically does not list a suppressor. So no, it actually doesn't say any change of address.

Interstate Movement: If the firearm identified in item 4 is a machinegun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or destructive device, the registrant may be required by 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(4) to obtain permission from ATF prior to any transportation in interstate or foreign commerce. ATF Form 5320.20 can be used to request this permission.
 

CStirling8011

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You're lying or you suck at reading, it literally says any interstate move and specifically does not list a suppressor. So no, it actually doesn't say any change of address.

Interstate Movement: If the firearm identified in item 4 is a machinegun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or destructive device, the registrant may be required by 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(4) to obtain permission from ATF prior to any transportation in interstate or foreign commerce. ATF Form 5320.20 can be used to request this permission.
Look at the form 1. It says this "Change of Description or Address: The registrant shall notify the NFA Division, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, WV 25405, in writing, of any change to the description of the firearm in item 4, or any change to the address of the registrant."

I'm not trying to having a pissing contest. Passing along the information I got from my own research.
 

JRT

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Look at the form 1. It says this "Change of Description or Address: The registrant shall notify the NFA Division, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, WV 25405, in writing, of any change to the description of the firearm in item 4, or any change to the address of the registrant."

I'm not trying to having a pissing contest. Passing along the information I got from my own research.
The problem with the ATF is they contradict themselves so often its infuriating, which was the point of my post about asking them questions. Think of it this way, I own two houses in Pennsylvania, if I move a machine gun between my two houses by your interpretation I should notify the ATF, the machine gun has moved. This is taken directly from their Q&A from the ATF website, it is the only Q&A post addressing moving with an NFA item. In the end you have to decide your level of risk, I take some comfort in the fact that every prominent NFA attorney says it's not required.

I have a NFA firearm and I’m moving. What do I do?​


A registered possessor of an NFA firearm, other than a federal firearms licensee/special occupational taxpayer (FFL/SOT), may not lawfully transport in interstate or foreign commerce any destructive device, machinegun, short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle without prior written approval of ATF, specifically the NFA Branch.
Approval for the transportation may be obtained by either a written request, or an approved application filed with ATF on Form 5320.20, Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily Export Certain NFA Firearms. Please note that applications to transport NFA firearms will be approved only if consistent with all state and local laws.

[18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(4); 27 CFR § 478.28]
 

CrackPot

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On the earlier questions about AWB compliance for SBRs and Form 4

Form 4 is a problem because as stated under MA law anything with under a 16" barrel (18" for shotgun) is a "firearm" and subject both to the roster and 940CMR16. This makes it impossible for any MA licensed dealer to transfer the complete weapon UNLESS the dealer is also a manufacturer and transferring something they made. BTW I would expect the ATF to deny that Form 4 because of the subtlety of the exception.

On the AWB the key is how the law reads. MGL 140 121 defines an assault weapon as "shall have the same meaning as" federal law of 13 sep 1994. So it is not an inclusion of federal law but a reference to it. So MA definitions of rifle, handgun, shotgun play no part in the determination. You have to go to federal land in its entirety to make a determination. Is this OBJECT under federal law an assault weapon. Under federal law the object is a rifle (short barreled but a rifle) so you apply the rifle definition of the federal AWB. Then you return to state law with a "yes" or "no" having made the determination in the context of federal law.

The "its not a rifle" people are sniffing glue. If it's not a rifle then its a pistol and go apply the pistol definition. You are seriously screwed at that point. If you say MA does not have a pistol definition so you can't read the pistol AWB, then why don't you all have AR pistols and AK pistols? Under MA law they are "firearms" not pistols so by the glue sniffing logic no AWB applies. You can see the problem here.

I think the risks associated with a non AWB compliant SBR are pretty low but I also think it is black and white that the AWB for rifles applies.
 

CStirling8011

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The problem with the ATF is they contradict themselves so often its infuriating, which was the point of my post about asking them questions. Think of it this way, I own two houses in Pennsylvania, if I move a machine gun between my two houses by your interpretation I should notify the ATF, the machine gun has moved. This is taken directly from their Q&A from the ATF website, it is the only Q&A post addressing moving with an NFA item. In the end you have to decide your level of risk, I take some comfort in the fact that every prominent NFA attorney says it's not required.

I have a NFA firearm and I’m moving. What do I do?​


A registered possessor of an NFA firearm, other than a federal firearms licensee/special occupational taxpayer (FFL/SOT), may not lawfully transport in interstate or foreign commerce any destructive device, machinegun, short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle without prior written approval of ATF, specifically the NFA Branch.
Approval for the transportation may be obtained by either a written request, or an approved application filed with ATF on Form 5320.20, Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily Export Certain NFA Firearms. Please note that applications to transport NFA firearms will be approved only if consistent with all state and local laws.

[18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(4); 27 CFR § 478.28]
I agree they don’t make any sense with a lot of their rules but isn’t that what they want. Confusion and the ability to interpret rules in the way they see fit. Total bullshit but it is what it is I guess.
 
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