McDonald Gun-Rights Case: Round One Goes to the NRA

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January 25, 2010

There is growing tension between the pro-gun parties to the upcoming Supreme Court gun-rights case. Perhaps concerned about the direction this case was going, the Court has taken the unusual step of granting the NRA’s motion to be given separate time to speak during oral arguments. Round One in this historic fight for the right to bear arms goes to the NRA.

The U.S. Supreme Court is set to hear arguments on March 2 in McDonald v. City of Chicago, presenting the question of whether the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is only enforceable against the federal government, or whether it is also a right against city and state governments. This lawsuit challenges Chicago’s gun ban, which is essentially identical to the federal ban in D.C. that the Supreme Court struck down in 2008.

The lawyers for Otis McDonald and his co-plaintiffs are libertarian activists, who are pushing an aggressive and potentially risky constitutional theory to the Court. Without getting too much in the legal weeds, McDonald is arguing that the Court should extend gun rights to the states through the little-known Fourteenth Amendment Privileges or Immunities Clause, and overrule a venerable precedent from 1873 called the Slaughter-House Cases, which protects state sovereignty by limiting the reach of Congress and the courts. The Slaughter-House Cases is only one step removed from Marbury v. Madison as one of the most important cases in American history.

The libertarian activists behind McDonald openly explain that the reason they are pushing the Court to overrule Slaughter-House has nothing to do with guns. Instead, they want to advance a libertarian economic agenda, where federal judges could sit in judgment of state and local laws involving labor, employment, business regulations and other economic issues. Although the Constitution is silent on these matters, these activists want the courts to start declaring constitutional rights against such things, and using the power of the federal judiciary to strike down laws of this sort that the judges don’t like.

The problem is that this approach could endanger gun rights. The narrower your focus when arguing a case, the easier it is to get a court to go along with you. The broader your argument, the steeper the hill you must climb.

In a case like McDonald v. Chicago, where the stakes are sky-high and the impact could be huge, the Court will be inclined to move very carefully. It’s quite a horse pill to swallow under the best of circumstances. In a situation such as this, where the narrowest argument you can make is still a broad one with serious ramifications, pushing a much larger agenda than necessary starts to run the risk that the Court will choke on the whole thing.

For that reason, the National Rifle Association is working hard to keep the focus of this case where it belongs, on gun rights. Whether the Second Amendment gives 300 million Americans a right against state or local laws that ban guns is a monumentally-important issue for personal liberty, and so the NRA’s argument presents only that issue before the justices.

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1. Let us not forget that the only reason we have the Heller decision is because the Cato Institute brought the lawsuit in the face of NRA opposition.

2.
McDonald is arguing that the Court should extend gun rights to the states through the little-known Fourteenth Amendment Privileges or Immunities Clause, and overrule a venerable precedent from 1873 called the Slaughter-House Cases, which protects state sovereignty by limiting the reach of Congress and the courts.

The Fourteenth Amendment is hardly "little-known;" it is THE means by which the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendment protections of civil rights were applied to the states. If there is another means by which the Second Amendment is to be used in the same manner, I'd love to hear it.

The prime movers may be pushing a broader agenda, and the NRA may have the better approach in this case, but this article seems a tad excessive.
 
The prime movers may be pushing a broader agenda, and the NRA may have the better approach in this case, but this article seems a tad excessive.

This article is designed to marginalize the people behind mcdonald. It reads like it is straight from NRA press office. I spent the weekend rewriting a press article quoting me so all too often reporters allow their subjects to rewrite articles or worse. Most likely this is designed to protect the NRA in the case of a failure and to lay the groundwork for heaping praise of the NRA in the case of SCOTUS incorporating through the now more common means of the due process clause. It is generally held that slaughterhouse was bad case law and the NRA is more willing to live with that instead of taking what may be one of the last significant opportunities to overrule slaughterhouse and reinstate P&I. That's about par for the course with the NRA. I would expect nothing less. At least by giving the court options, they aren't damaging the case for us.

BTW: You may have misread that bit though it was without a doubt poorly written.
McDonald is arguing that the Court should extend gun rights to the states through the little-known Fourteenth Amendment Privileges or Immunities Clause, and overrule a venerable precedent from 1873 called the Slaughter-House Cases, which protects state sovereignty by limiting the reach of Congress and the courts.

They qualified 14th by stating P&I. It is little known because it was adjudicated out of existence. But the last sentence explains why they don't wan't slaughterhouse to get overturned. They want to be able to protect free states from having to abide by federal law. I really don't know the potential ramifications to know which is better overall, but living in this state the choice is clear.
 
The Fourteenth Amendment is hardly "little-known;" it is THE means by which the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendment protections of civil rights were applied to the states. If there is another means by which the Second Amendment is to be used in the same manner, I'd love to hear it.

The prime movers may be pushing a broader agenda, and the NRA may have the better approach in this case, but this article seems a tad excessive.

I'm not quite sure that he's saying that the entire 14th Amendment is "little known" or just Section 1. I think that the more important question is whether a narrow argument (incorporation) or a broader argument (privileges or immunities) is the more likely to succeed in front of the Justices. From my reading, and unquestionably yours is broader, it appears that the court, and this court in particular, prefers the former approach. What is your take on that?
 
Now I have a question, I haven't been following this at all. From what I have seen and heard this would give the rights to states instead of the federal goverment is this correct? Now what are the implications of this on say MA where we already have an AWB in effect and a pretty much banned hand gun list. Now if Mconald wins would MA be able to completely screw over the gun owning citizens of MA more so than how it is now. Now if I have this backward please set it straight or if anyone has a link that sums the Legal Case up in general terms that will work also.
 
Now I have a question, I haven't been following this at all. From what I have seen and heard this would give the rights to states instead of the federal goverment is this correct? Now what are the implications of this on say MA where we already have an AWB in effect and a pretty much banned hand gun list. Now if Mconald wins would MA be able to completely screw over the gun owning citizens of MA more so than how it is now. Now if I have this backward please set it straight or if anyone has a link that sums the Legal Case up in general terms that will work also.

You have it backwards. If this successful, the states will be less able to infringe our 2A rights. The catch is, it would mean more power for the fed gov.
 
1. Let us not forget that the only reason we have the Heller decision is because the Cato Institute brought the lawsuit in the face of NRA opposition.

2.

The Fourteenth Amendment is hardly "little-known;" it is THE means by which the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendment protections of civil rights were applied to the states. If there is another means by which the Second Amendment is to be used in the same manner, I'd love to hear it.

The prime movers may be pushing a broader agenda, and the NRA may have the better approach in this case, but this article seems a tad excessive.

Scrivener, if we win this case, do you think there is a chance on getting "wholesale incorporation" pushed through?
 
Now I have a question, I haven't been following this at all. From what I have seen and heard this would give the rights to states instead of the federal goverment is this correct? Now what are the implications of this on say MA where we already have an AWB in effect and a pretty much banned hand gun list. Now if Mconald wins would MA be able to completely screw over the gun owning citizens of MA more so than how it is now. Now if I have this backward please set it straight or if anyone has a link that sums the Legal Case up in general terms that will work also.

There are two competing interests on "our" side of this case. Both are trying to protect our rights but going about it in dramatically different ways.

1. One side (the NRA) is pushing to have the 2A incorporated and treated the same as the rest of the bill of rights. This would extend the Constitution's limitations regarding the 2A to the states and could result in many state laws being changed or invalidated. This would protect our rights by putting an end to liberals picking and choosing which parts of the bill of rights should be upheld and which parts should not. One state could not limit 2A rights any more than another.

2. The other side is essentially pushing to "reset" law in the US to where they think it ought to be. Once upon a time the Federal government could not tell the states what to do except in very specific circumstances. Then came along some SCOTUS rulings that dramatically extended the reach of the feds and infringed on States' rights. If this side wins, states will have a MUCH bigger say in what goes on within their own borders and will put things more in line with what the founding fathers envisioned. This would protect our rights by scaling back federal government and getting their noses out of much of our business. However, it would also mean that the States themselves could pass all the laws they want with respect to firearms. The feds could do nothing to infringe on our 2A rights but MA could do all its little heart desires.

note: I wrote this very quickly and am not an expert on constitutional law. If I'm wrong or misinformed I'm sure someone will be along to point that out.


Edit: I'm going to leave the second point in the post but would like to note that I now realize I've gone off topic here. #2 is part of an argument surrounding incorporation, but one that is not related to the OP. my bad.
 
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There are two competing interests on "our" side of this case. Both are trying to protect our rights but going about it in dramatically different ways.

1. One side (the NRA) is pushing to have the 2A incorporated and treated the same as the rest of the bill of rights. This would extend the Constitution's limitations regarding the 2A to the states and could result in many state laws being changed or invalidated. This would protect our rights by putting an end to liberals picking and choosing which parts of the bill of rights should be upheld and which parts should not. One state could not limit 2A rights any more than another.

2. The other side is essentially pushing to "reset" law in the US to where they think it ought to be. Once upon a time the Federal government could not tell the states what to do except in very specific circumstances. Then came along some SCOTUS rulings that dramatically extended the reach of the feds and infringed on States' rights. If this side wins, states will have a MUCH bigger say in what goes on within their own borders and will put things more in line with what the founding fathers envisioned. This would protect our rights by scaling back federal government and getting their noses out of much of our business. However, it would also mean that the States themselves could pass all the laws they want with respect to firearms. The feds could do nothing to infringe on our 2A rights but MA could do all its little heart desires.

note: I wrote this very quickly and am not an expert on constitutional law. If I'm wrong or misinformed I'm sure someone will be along to point that out.

My quick read says #2 may be off. I think the net result of this is to push the federal constitution and federal case law down onto the states which would in effect remove some autonomy from the states. But resurrecting P&I appears to be a far more complex problem set than it first appears and I could be wrong.
 
Scrivener, if we win this case, do you think there is a chance on getting "wholesale incorporation" pushed through?

I don't know what you consider "wholesale incorporation." If you mean MORE than the Second Amendment, a doubtful "maybe." I think the Second has a good shot at incorporation.
 
My quick read says #2 may be off. I think the net result of this is to push the federal constitution and federal case law down onto the states which would in effect remove some autonomy from the states. But resurrecting P&I appears to be a far more complex problem set than it first appears and I could be wrong.

I have been following the broader fight over incorporation more than the specifics of this case so perhaps I'm applying the generalities here and missing the details. Either way I expect (hope for) the 2A to be incorporated. If we're going to live with incorporation we should at least be consistent with its application.
 
There are two competing interests on "our" side of this case. Both are trying to protect our rights but going about it in dramatically different ways.

1. One side (the NRA) is pushing to have the 2A incorporated and treated the same as the rest of the bill of rights. This would extend the Constitution's limitations regarding the 2A to the states and could result in many state laws being changed or invalidated. This would protect our rights by putting an end to liberals picking and choosing which parts of the bill of rights should be upheld and which parts should not. One state could not limit 2A rights any more than another.

2. The other side is essentially pushing to "reset" law in the US to where they think it ought to be. Once upon a time the Federal government could not tell the states what to do except in very specific circumstances. Then came along some SCOTUS rulings that dramatically extended the reach of the feds and infringed on States' rights. If this side wins, states will have a MUCH bigger say in what goes on within their own borders and will put things more in line with what the founding fathers envisioned. This would protect our rights by scaling back federal government and getting their noses out of much of our business. However, it would also mean that the States themselves could pass all the laws they want with respect to firearms. The feds could do nothing to infringe on our 2A rights but MA could do all its little heart desires.

note: I wrote this very quickly and am not an expert on constitutional law. If I'm wrong or misinformed I'm sure someone will be along to point that out.

My impression was that the founding fathers believed more in state rights, EXCEPT they felt every American was entitled to those rights specified in the Bill of Rights
 
I don't know what you consider "wholesale incorporation." If you mean MORE than the Second Amendment, a doubtful "maybe." I think the Second has a good shot at incorporation.

When I've heard "wholesale incorporation" is has referred to the automatic incorporation of the first eight ammendments on the Bill of Rights.
 
1. Let us not forget that the only reason we have the Heller decision is because the Cato Institute brought the lawsuit in the face of NRA opposition.

2.

The Fourteenth Amendment is hardly "little-known;" it is THE means by which the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendment protections of civil rights were applied to the states. If there is another means by which the Second Amendment is to be used in the same manner, I'd love to hear it.

The prime movers may be pushing a broader agenda, and the NRA may have the better approach in this case, but this article seems a tad excessive.

I take the meaning of the post to be that named petitioners are pushing Mr. Justice Black's theory of "wholesale incorporation" (which does have history on its side), versus the more modern (but toublesome) "selective incorporation" theory. These both derive from the Fourteenth Amendment.

The problem here is that the Court is free to decide a case based on the theory argued (and to ignore the result that would have obtained had the "correct" theory been argued), which is why other parties are pushing "selective incorporation." We, as gun people, want incorporation and are relatively indifferent as to the theoretical basis on which incorporation results. The named petitioners, on the other hand, want "wholesale incorporation" for unrelated, non-gun reasons (or so it is claimed).
 
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There are two competing interests on "our" side of this case. Both are trying to protect our rights but going about it in dramatically different ways.

1. One side (the NRA) is pushing to have the 2A incorporated and treated the same as the rest of the bill of rights. This would extend the Constitution's limitations regarding the 2A to the states and could result in many state laws being changed or invalidated. This would protect our rights by putting an end to liberals picking and choosing which parts of the bill of rights should be upheld and which parts should not. One state could not limit 2A rights any more than another.

2. The other side is essentially pushing to "reset" law in the US to where they think it ought to be. Once upon a time the Federal government could not tell the states what to do except in very specific circumstances. Then came along some SCOTUS rulings that dramatically extended the reach of the feds and infringed on States' rights. If this side wins, states will have a MUCH bigger say in what goes on within their own borders and will put things more in line with what the founding fathers envisioned. This would protect our rights by scaling back federal government and getting their noses out of much of our business. However, it would also mean that the States themselves could pass all the laws they want with respect to firearms. The feds could do nothing to infringe on our 2A rights but MA could do all its little heart desires.

note: I wrote this very quickly and am not an expert on constitutional law. If I'm wrong or misinformed I'm sure someone will be along to point that out.

Your #2 is pretty much totally wrong.

NRA is pushing for incorporation under the due process clause. This is where the whole current 'selective incorporation' doctrine rests. Basically, NRA is only going for 2A applies to states via 14th the same way other things do.

Gura and Co. are pushing for incorporation under the privileges and immunities clause. This would overrule the slaughterhouse cases, which many agree were wrongly decided. Slaughterhouse basically read the P&I clause out of the 14th amendment. Reviving the P&I clause would protect far more rights from state action. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfield_v._Coryell details the privileges and immunities of a citizen.

This interview with Gura explains a lot about the case: http://audio.ivoices.org/mp3/iipodcast358.mp3 I also recommend reading Gura's brief: http://www.chicagoguncase.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/08-1521ts.pdf

ETA: There are some that say that gun rights was only a vehicle and the overall goal of Gura and co is to revive P&I for the purposes of bringing back Lochner.
 
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My impression was that the founding fathers believed more in state rights, EXCEPT they felt every American was entitled to those rights specified in the Bill of Rights

my view is that we are not entitled to the rights listed in the constitution simply because they are in the constitution, but that the bill of rights recognizes the prior existence of those rights and states that congress cannot infringe upon them. the States on the other hand, have much more leeway in what they can do.

Your #2 is pretty much totally wrong.

yes, I've realized that as noted above. In my haste to write a response I skimmed the OP and started off on what is essentially a related, but different argument surrounding the issue of incorporation.
 
Note that Lochner struck down a STATE law; not a Federal one.

It did rely upon the P&I Clause, however.
 
I don't really see this as a good thing. Levy and Gura got us this far and did so in the face of stiff opposition from the NRA in the early stages. I'd like to see them keep riding this horse and not risk the NRA f'ing it up.
 
If the NRA effs this up I have a feeling they will lay blame elsewhere. They seem to be grabbing the spotlight for self promotion and little else. I will hold any opinions from here on out until more info is available. Surely I am over my head with reguard to the laws of the land but I hope I am wrong about the NRA. I know GOAL is in no position to do anything with this although I would trust them much more than any other group.
 
The way I read it, and I could very well be wrong. The NRA is simply giving another option for a narrower decision. That should be a good thing for us since it gives the court 2 options to incorporate rather than one. They may opt to take either, where if they just present the more broad option they may rule against us, sealing the door on the 2A for the forseeable future.
 
The way I read it, and I could very well be wrong. The NRA is simply giving another option for a narrower decision. That should be a good thing for us since it gives the court 2 options to incorporate rather than one. They may opt to take either, where if they just present the more broad option they may rule against us, sealing the door on the 2A for the forseeable future.

I think this is quite correct. Indeed, strictly as a guess, it may be the reason why the Court took the unusual step of allowing an amicus to argue orally.
 
I think this is quite correct. Indeed, strictly as a guess, it may be the reason why the Court took the unusual step of allowing an amicus to argue orally.

If this is true, then would I be right in believing that the court wants to incorporate 2A and the odds of it happening are better than average?
 
If this is true, then would I be right in believing that the court wants to incorporate 2A and the odds of it happening are better than average?

One can dream my friend, one can dream.

In that regard, I feel this may be the case, considering the same Justices that ruled in favor of Heller are still on the bench (Scalia, Roberts, Kennedy, Thomas, Alito), I say we get this done now before any of those seats change any further.

We really need more Justices like Scalia and Thomas.
 
Scrivener, if we were to win in the Chicago case, what would be the potential immediate effect on MA (if any) and what would be the next steps? Thanks in advance
 
Scrivener, if we were to win in the Chicago case, what would be the potential immediate effect on MA (if any) and what would be the next steps? Thanks in advance

Though IANAL, and I'm definitely not Scriv, I believe this will have little immediate impact.

As much as we bemoan the various and ambiguously worded Mass laws, they still allow for firearms ownership, people's rights are not denied in the sense that you can get a license and you can buy a gun, you just may not get the license or gun you want.

Our issue is a more a procedural issue with regards to the issuance of licenses (or more to the point, lack of uniformity of issuance) and having various license types (Class A, Class B, FID) as opposed to an all encompassing license.

So in a very broad sense your rights are not being infringed, though depending on the court that can be up for debate.
 
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Let me first say I think this is probably a good move on the part of the NRA. As many have said, It's an argument of least resistance, that requires less revision of previous decisions. I've heard it summarized that the NRA wants to save gun rights, while Mr. Gura wants to save the republic. I'd rather win on the NRA's argument than lose.

But this?
a venerable precedent from 1873 called the Slaughter-House Cases

The slaughterhouse cases? Venerable? I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.
 
I think this is quite correct. Indeed, strictly as a guess, it may be the reason why the Court took the unusual step of allowing an amicus to argue orally.

NRA isn't an amicus in this case, they're a respondent in support of petitioner.

Re affects on MA:
There are several challenges of CA gun laws that are on hold pending the outcome of McDonald. They're pretty much the same challenges I'd bring in MA. One is arguing for shall issue carry permits, and the other against CA's handgun roster. If those cases win, similar cases in MA should be nearly slam dunks.
 
1. Let us not forget that the only reason we have the Heller decision is because the Cato Institute brought the lawsuit in the face of NRA opposition.


The prime movers may be pushing a broader agenda, and the NRA may have the better approach in this case, but this article seems a tad excessive.

I still do not understand the lovefest with the NRA. There seem to be many cases where they make such compromises.
 
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