MBTA officer shot by friendly fire?

[M1911]

When I read the descriptions of the Watertown shoot out, I wondered whether the bombers could actually have hit the officer at night from that distance. I wondered whether he was hit by another officer.

http://mobile.boston.com/art/70/met...bombing-suspects/pnPFWw6A3irQKRzhlB6zIN/story

 

[Palladin]

Think about this for a moment:

The BG's only had one gun...this is finally out as fact. Assume it was a G17 and the BG had two 17 round mags, that would allow him 34 or 35 rounds to empty.

There were over 200 rounds fired per all reports!!! 135+ fired by LEO's and they barely wounded the BG's......I'd love to see the houses at the end of the street, they probably look like a shack in Baghdad!

 

[SteelShooter]

Think about this for a moment:

The BG's only had one gun...this is finally out as fact. Assume it was a G17 and the BG had two 17 round mags, that would allow him 34 or 35 rounds to empty.

There were over 200 rounds fired per all reports!!! 135+ fired by LEO's and they barely wounded the BG's......I'd love to see the houses at the end of the street, they probably look like a shack in Baghdad!

I don't think your data is accurate. I believe there are some up close pictures of the BGs in the shoot out in Watertown and they had a 'long rifle' at least one of them was shooting. I'll dig up the pics when I'm off the iPad.

 

[FrugalFannie]

I don't think your data is accurate. I believe there are some up close pictures of the BGs in the shoot out in Watertown and they had a 'long rifle' at least one of them was shooting. I'll dig up the pics when I'm off the iPad.

No. they had 1 handgun.

And BTW, I called this days ago. just saying. (friendly fire shot the cop)

 

[Bob Palermo]

When I read this story all I could think about was the other NES thread where people were asking if it was ok to engage the bad buys in this situation. If other Cops are getting hit with friendly fire, what do you think would happen to you?

 

[ntomsw]

That would suck.

I wonder if that will ever come out. Nope, that will get brushed under the rug.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Ought to be pretty easy to determine. Take the projo out of the injured mbta cop, examine it under a microscope and photograph it.

Then, test fire every weapon involved at the shootout and compare the fired projos from them and see which one matches.

Its not rocket science and any one projo that comes up from a different unaccounted for gun in the process would be the one to go after. Someone would have to willfully and deliberately fudge the process to come up with anything but truthful data.

 

[not new guy]

The handgun was a 9mm Ruger according to the radio the other day.

 

[Bob J]

I heard on the scanner that they recovered a spent bullet some distance from the shoot out..... Was a 40 so the consensus at the time was that it was a police round.....

 

[Livefreeormass]

That would suck.

I wonder if that will ever come out. Nope, that will get brushed under the rug.

A vastly overwhelming LE force was deployed, to not only eliminate the threat swiftly but also send a strong and clear signal. I guess for you or me, it'd be show your hands or you're dead.

 

[Serapis]

No. they had 1 handgun.

And BTW, I called this days ago. just saying. (friendly fire shot the cop)

Don't seem so happy or proud of yourself

 

[Da_lucche]

I don't think your data is accurate. I believe there are some up close pictures of the BGs in the shoot out in Watertown and they had a 'long rifle' at least one of them was shooting. I'll dig up the pics when I'm off the iPad.

There was no long arm in any of those pics. The only pic that seems like the older brother might be holding a rifle was actually the way his coat parted down the middle, making it look like a magazine from an AR but it was just his coat and undershirt. The younger brother (in the white hat in those pics) is clearly shown ducking down, sometimes resting both hands on his knees. The older brother had one gun. This is why they killed the MIT cop: to steal another handgun but they could not get the handgun out of his holster.

 

[Boghog1]

Don't seem so happy or proud of yourself

how should she behave to meet your approval? Maybe remorseful? I don't see her as being happy or proud seems more disappointed that the boys in Black/OD Green in almost killing one of their own.

 

[ccm75]

I was thinking this as well due to the lack of info put out about how the MBTA officer was shot...
And, I thought I heard he was shot in the let with a shotgun?

 

[squatch413]

There is much concern about the militarization of police departments and I'm right there with people on that when it comes to many routine things. However, this was a situation where some of the more military assets (bearcat, robots, EOD teams) worked out quite well. I'm digressing.

Still, a neglected area where the police could use more "militarization" is on firearms and basic combat engagement of multiple opponents. If they are going to have guns and be out there on the street expected to use them as part of a job, they need to know how to engage with them in the safest way possible for the benefit of all involved, especially bystanders. Sure, maybe some of these cops are well trained and really good but the vast majority simply are not good shooters from my observation. Some can barely operate their glocks and get confused by any other platform. These are the same people we are throwing out on the streets to have at it with any suspect who is crazy enough.

The attention paid to firearms training in PD academies is severely lacking as is an emphasis on improving skills and staying sharp while on the job. I also believe all police should have and be well trained (no such "well trained" condition formally exists right now) on an AR platform. It should be ready and accessible in the cruiser. The problem is those 2 things are mutually exclusive, they will never agree to proper training so we can mitigate the risks of them killing somebody but they will want them. Endless loop. Maybe they should start realizing that double time and a half for going to the range + dept supplied ammo is nice to have but not a necessity. Spending a bit of your own time and, gasp, money could save your ass and the asses of your fellow LEOs and citizens alike. Pigs will fly before this mindset comes to MA PD's.

This may sound a bit sheepish in implying that CCW holders should be regulated and trained but I disagree with that stuff entirely. There is a difference between carrying in a defensive scenario and being expected to use one as part of your job. If this was indeed friendly fire, you can likely thank the lack of coherent firearms and close quarters combat training. If I was still a cop, I would not care necessarily about beating the opponent in such an extreme case but making sure more are not lost by friendly fire would be paramount while saving my own ass. Some things are best playing defense and waiting for SWAT.

Just because something worked quite well doesn't mean its right. There's lots of things that could in theory make us safer but in the end are far more dangerous than what they are "protecting" us from.

 

[calsdad]

Wait a minute - let me get this straight.

First the MBTA guy might have gotten shot by "friendly fire"? . Then there's the guy that was taking pictures of the two brothers out his second floor window while they were engaged in that firefight with the cops on that Watertown street: PICTURES AND EYEWINESS ACCOUNT OF THE WATERTOWN SHOOTOUT « The Burning Platform - so it's plainly obvious that if a civilian had happened to be there at the time, with a rifle - and a halfway decent shot - a civilian could have taken them both out ? Rather easily actually from the looks of the pictures.?

Then the cops bring in probably thousands of other officers - and after all of that - they can't find the kid? So they lift the stay inside order - and a civilian finds the kid in the back of his boat - where (once again) - he could have rather easily taken him out if he had a gun - because he actually poked his head in and SAW him in there - vs. the cops who showed up - couldn't get the flash-bangs into the boat - shot the crap out of the boat - and still didn't kill the kid - but apparently shot the crap out of somebody's computer room.

Oh yeah - and we're finding out that the kids were on welfare for at least some part of their lives - the mother was a shoplifter - and the younger brother might have had a brand new Camaro (like a $35,000 car if I remember correctly) - and the older brother was going to a state school - with financial help?

This story just gets more awesome by the day. This is the kind of crap you just can't make up - and could probably only happen in Massachusetts.

At first I thought the movie of that week would be made by Ben Affleck - now I'm thinking the Farrelly brothers will likely be the ones to make it.

 

[Serapis]

how should she behave to meet your approval? Maybe remorseful? I don't see her as being happy or proud seems more disappointed that the boys in Black/OD Green in almost killing one of their own.

I don't like the underlying tone.

Maybe I'm wrong and my defenses are on over drive around here with sentiments toward LE lately.

 

[Serapis]

So I apologize if that's the case

 

[IDPA Mike]

“It was the fog of war,” the official said. “There’s usually one cop and one suspect. This is unprecedented.”

Do they only practice for 1 perp?
They should go to an IDPA match or IPSC. for practice

When I read the descriptions of the Watertown shoot out, I wondered whether the bombers could actually have hit the officer at night from that distance. I wondered whether he was hit by another officer.

Boston.com

 

[calsdad]

There is much concern about the militarization of police departments and I'm right there with people on that when it comes to many routine things. However, this was a situation where some of the more military assets (bearcat, robots, EOD teams) worked out quite well. I'm digressing.

Still, a neglected area where the police could use more "militarization" is on firearms and basic combat engagement of multiple opponents. If they are going to have guns and be out there on the street expected to use them as part of a job, they need to know how to engage with them in the safest way possible for the benefit of all involved, especially bystanders. Sure, maybe some of these cops are well trained and really good but the vast majority simply are not good shooters from my observation. Some can barely operate their glocks and get confused by any other platform. These are the same people we are throwing out on the streets to have at it with any suspect who is crazy enough.

The attention paid to firearms training in PD academies is severely lacking as is an emphasis on improving skills and staying sharp while on the job. I also believe all police should have and be well trained (no such "well trained" condition formally exists right now) on an AR platform. It should be ready and accessible in the cruiser. The problem is those 2 things are mutually exclusive, they will never agree to proper training so we can mitigate the risks of them killing somebody but they will want them. Endless loop. Maybe they should start realizing that double time and a half for going to the range + dept supplied ammo is nice to have but not a necessity. Spending a bit of your own time and, gasp, money could save your ass and the asses of your fellow LEOs and citizens alike. Pigs will fly before this mindset comes to MA PD's.

This may sound a bit sheepish in implying that CCW holders should be regulated and trained but I disagree with that stuff entirely. There is a difference between carrying in a defensive scenario and being expected to use one as part of your job. If this was indeed friendly fire, you can likely thank the lack of coherent firearms and close quarters combat training. If I was still a cop, I would not care necessarily about beating the opponent in such an extreme case but making sure more are not lost by friendly fire would be paramount while saving my own ass. Some things are best playing defense and waiting for SWAT.

Filling the streets up with guys all suited up in body armor - or riding in the back of armored vehicles - DOES NOT FIND A FUGITIVE.

Obviously - because it DIDN'T WORK.

For that kind of situation you need a hunter. Probably some tracking dogs - and SILENCE. Not a bunch of guys marching down STREETS - and generally just accomplishing NOTHING.

They probably would have found the kid a lot quicker if they had just told everybody to stay inside - sent out QUIETLY - some hunter killer groups - of maybe one two or three people max - with dogs - and just go around the neighborhoods and look for the damn kid like you would if you were hunting down prey.

What you also do is involve the civilians - INTIMATELY - by letting them know that THEY will be the ones who will likely find this kid in the end.

What you've got with the current state of the militarized police departments is a system and a philosophy that is defective at it's core on so many levels.

 

[Boris]

...
This story just gets more awesome by the day. This is the kind of crap you just can't make up - and could probably only happen in Massachusetts.

At first I thought the movie of that week would be made by Ben Affleck - now I'm thinking the Farrelly brothers will likely be the ones to make it.

You forgot the part that bombed place was the most photographed on the planet and despite all the cameras and super-awesome, undercover BDU pants security completely failed, with only clear footage coming from Lord and Taylor.

 

[Da_lucche]

I don't like the underlying tone.

Maybe I'm wrong and my defenses are on over drive around here with sentiments toward LE lately.

Maybe if law enforcement stopped pretending to be the military and did a little bit less revenue and morality enforcement, there wouldn't be any negative sentiment towards them.

Did North Korea or Russia or China invade Watertown? No, so get your damn militarized suits off my streets.

 

[squatch413]

I don't like the underlying tone.

Maybe I'm wrong and my defenses are on over drive around here with sentiments toward LE lately.

So you really think the response to all this in Watertwon was OK? How about the sentiments of some (notice I didn't say all, I know quite a few good LEOs)LE towards us?

 

[calsdad]

“It was the fog of war,” the official said. “There’s usually one cop and one suspect. This is unprecedented.”

Do they only practice for 1 perp?
They should go to an IDPA match or IPSC. for practice

Fog of war?

With how many thousands of officers - against 1 TEENAGER?



I've been listening for years about how allowing civilians to carry guns would cause riots in the streets - random mass shootings and all sorts of innocents dead because somebody was allowed to carry a firearm for their own protection - and at the same time how we must only allow guns to be carried by "professionals" And here we finally get into a situation where all of that talking finally meets reality - and what do we get? Cops shooting up a boat over a kid inside - who doesn't even have a gun? And shooting up somebody's computer room? How many other houses around Watertown were full of bullet holes?

Seriously - these are the only guys in the room who are qualified to handle these weapons? .... oops BOOM!!

- - - Updated - - -

You forgot the part that bombed place was the most photographed on the planet and despite all the cameras and super-awesome, undercover BDU pants security completely failed, with only clear footage coming from Lord and Taylor.

Yeah that too. Add that to the list of retardisms from this whole chain of events.

 

[Serapis]

Maybe if law enforcement stopped pretending to be the military and did a little bit less revenue and morality enforcement, there wouldn't be any negative sentiment towards them.

Did North Korea or Russia or China invade Watertown? No, so get your damn militarized suits off my streets.

I see what you are saying and agree to an extent. But don't forget they twice bombed a world event, executed a cop, were apart of injuring another one, tossed bombs out of a car window, and got into a firefight on residential streets.

Hind sight is always 20 20. They did a lot of things right AND wrong.

 

[squatch413]

"Fog of War" what kind of bullshit excuse is that? The government made it "unprecedented". As far as shooting some IDPA or IPSC match "MOST" cops don't have that kind of discipline. Don't get me wrong I know cops that shoot these events and do it very well, they are the exception not the rule.

They sure did. One or two suspects depending on the timing either with one pistol or unarmed. So they are saying two cops would've handle it better than all hands on deck with swat gear Bearcats etc? The .gov created the fog of war for sure.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

Why am I not surprised. Think about this the average muni cop is driving a vehicle in which the vehicle is assigned the rifle and or shotgun, not the officer. Which I have always had issue with. I will say the Environmental Police each have a shotgun with rifle sights issued to each officer, slugs are the primary carry round for the shotgun. They are required to train and qual twice a year with thier assigned firearms.

On top of all this Mass. has done away with the qual based on numerical ability, But has gone to a pass or fail, with 80% in the milk bottle target as a pass. The course of fire only goes back to the 15 yard line as well. That whole course was designed to allow for mediocrity at best.

Actually. Its getting better. Use of force transition, time constraints, shooting one handed, shooting while moving, etc....

 

[M1911]

Why am I not surprised. Think about this the average muni cop is driving a vehicle in which the vehicle is assigned the rifle and or shotgun, not the officer..

I don't know about Watertown cops, but I have been told by a BPD sergeant that Boston PD cruisers don't have long guns - no shotgun and no rifle. SWAT and gun cars have long guns, but there aren't many of those.

 

[Sweeney]

I see what you are saying and agree to an extent. But don't forget they twice bombed a world event, executed a cop, were apart of injuring another one, tossed bombs out of a car window, and got into a firefight on residential streets.

Hind sight is always 20 20. They did a lot of things right AND wrong.

...and you perpetuate the image problem. "Bombed a world event" AND "executed a cop" AND 'injured another cop'. Why do you separate out the cops yet make no mention of the three other people who were "executed" and the many more who were permanently maimed and disfigured? Do they not rate as highly as cops?

Treat everyone as equals and the image may improve.

 

[Terrence]

...and you perpetuate the image problem. "Bombed a world event" AND "executed a cop" AND 'injured another cop'. Why do you separate out the cops yet make no mention of the three other people who were "executed" and the many more who were permanently maimed and disfigured? Do they not rate as highly as cops?

Treat everyone as equals and the image may improve.

+1. Cops should be treated as the regular citizens they are, not a separate more equal class. This is a widespread problem.