Marlboro April 23-24

[silent*anarchy]

Within a few minutes, one of his employees arrived with three police officers and informed us that even though he personally agreed with us, the "plaid shirt" man wanted us to leave the show.

. Though we were asked by his employee to consider returning to another show, we have thought about this and will not be returning to the Newmart Promotions Inc. shows even if we are (which I feel safe in believing we aren't) welcome back.

This is nothing new from this promoter. I had a similar incident from newman. I used to follow the show circut a long time ago and attended the shows in ny,conn and mass that this same promoter had. I was set up at the poughkepsie show with my militaria and had a welded ww1 gew mauser action on my table. I had bought it just for the stock as the the barrel was pluged, reciever drilled and bolt welded into place, a non shooter. I sold it to a customer who was stopped at the door by newman who quickly came to my table with an officer asking me if i sold this. I replied yes and he informed i was under arrest for selling a rifle without a BC. I pointed out the welds and stated it was a non-gun anymore and told the officer that is not a shootable rifle but a club anymore. After more arguing with newman, the fat promoter, the officer walked away, no arrest no warning. You cant trust that promoter. He even tried forcing me to accept a customers personal check when i have a cash only rule. The same promoter runs the matamoras gunshow and applies ny rules in pa.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

could be worse if Hillary were president, oh wait...

 

[bulletproof]

Glocks have been specifically singled out in a 16 July, 2004 Advisory, as part of his Consumer Protection Safety Act Regulations, which have the power of law, from then AG Reilly, as being illegal to sell to consumers in Massachusetts. Nothing has changed since then as to their legality except that they CAN be sold to LE officers. That said, a line posted earlier to the effect that if they were OK to sell, wouldnt everyone be doing it? Yeah they would. The only way this will change is for someone to take it to task , sell them, and then fight it in court. That requires deep pockets. I am a former FFL and now a LEO in central Ma. I do know the laws and you can also rest assured that FFL's in Ma. ALSO know the laws. (Most cops DON'T). Some dealers have just chosen not to comply. I think that the guns that LE uses should also be legal for the populace they protect to also use. But, I will say that gun show is NOT the place to fight this. All this will do is fuel the already existing idea that gun shows are evil and are the place to go to buy illegal guns. Newman is only thinking of one thing, money. He KNOWS that Glocks are illegal to sell to consumers, he KNOWS high cap magazines are illegal to sell in Ma. if made after 9-13-94. He chooses to play dumb. 7 years ago I worked for him as security for a few shows, and brought all of this to his attention as I was still an FFL at that time. He told me to mind my own business and he didn't care. He dosent, either. His hand must have simply been forced at this show by forces he couldnt tell to go away. He ignores Ma. law................he carries a pump shotgun with him at all these shows to protect him and his $$, and he lives in NY. I would suggest that those who encourage dealers to break the law, redirect their efforts at joining together with GOAL to fight this. Fighting anogst yoursleves and pointing fingers at each other will solve nothing . Fight together or die separately.

 

[oilspill]

Glocks have been specifically singled out in a 16 July, 2004 Advisory, as part of his Consumer Protection Safety Act Regulations, which have the power of law, from then AG Reilly, as being illegal to sell to consumers in Massachusetts. .

I googled this and found:

http://www.mass.gov/ago/docs/regula...ag-handgun-regulation-enforcement-notices.pdf

Which I had never seen before. Some interesting tidbits, I didn't know that the AG required a loaded chamber indicator OR a magazine disconnect. But what really perked me up was the following:

The Attorney General's consumer protection regulations governing handguns are now in effect. The regulations
apply generally to "transfers" (sales, leases, and rentals) of handguns by "handgun-purveyors" (dealers,
wholesalers, and manufacturers) to customers located in Massachusetts. Certain exceptions apply. Existing
federal, state, and municipal laws, including those relating to handgun licensing, remain in effect.

So if I buy a gun online and a FFL 'transfers' it to me the AG's regulations don't apply? It's not a sale, rental, or lease.

 

[n1oty]

Glocks have been specifically singled out in a 16 July, 2004 Advisory, as part of his Consumer Protection Safety Act Regulations, which have the power of law, from then AG Reilly, as being illegal to sell to consumers in Massachusetts. Nothing has changed since then as to their legality except that they CAN be sold to LE officers. That said, a line posted earlier to the effect that if they were OK to sell, wouldnt everyone be doing it? Yeah they would. The only way this will change is for someone to take it to task , sell them, and then fight it in court. That requires deep pockets. I am a former FFL and now a LEO in central Ma. I do know the laws and you can also rest assured that FFL's in Ma. ALSO know the laws. (Most cops DON'T). Some dealers have just chosen not to comply. I think that the guns that LE uses should also be legal for the populace they protect to also use. But, I will say that gun show is NOT the place to fight this. All this will do is fuel the already existing idea that gun shows are evil and are the place to go to buy illegal guns. Newman is only thinking of one thing, money. He KNOWS that Glocks are illegal to sell to consumers, he KNOWS high cap magazines are illegal to sell in Ma. if made after 9-13-94. He chooses to play dumb. 7 years ago I worked for him as security for a few shows, and brought all of this to his attention as I was still an FFL at that time. He told me to mind my own business and he didn't care. He dosent, either. His hand must have simply been forced at this show by forces he couldnt tell to go away. He ignores Ma. law................he carries a pump shotgun with him at all these shows to protect him and his $$, and he lives in NY. I would suggest that those who encourage dealers to break the law, redirect their efforts at joining together with GOAL to fight this. Fighting anogst yoursleves and pointing fingers at each other will solve nothing . Fight together or die separately.

Actually, a lot has transpired since that time and a lot of Glocks appear on the Massachusetts Approved Firearm Roster. The only remaining ball that remains in the air is whether the Glocks comply with the regulations promulgated pursuant to Chapter 93. This is a civil matter, not a criminal matter, and affect the seller only. Possession by a citizen cannot, and is not, covered by consumer protection regulations.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Actually, a lot has transpired since that time and a lot of Glocks appear on the Massachusetts Approved Firearm Roster. The only remaining ball that remains in the air is whether the Glocks comply with the regulations promulgated pursuant to Chapter 93. This is a civil matter, not a criminal matter, and affect the seller only. Possession by a citizen cannot, and is not, covered by consumer protection regulations.

. . . this needs to be stressed! The "citizen" is considered by C. 93A as a "VICTIM" of the sale and that is WHY the "citizen" can NOT be prosecuted and has done nothing wrong!! We've said this hundreds of times here on NES, but many just don't get it and worry themselves into a tizzy.

 

[Chet0729]

Something is fishy here. First off, I checked out twice and it was a rent-a-cop who checked me out both times. Second, didn't I read above that this nonsense actually started back in Foxboro? What are the odds that the same cop or rent-a-cop made trouble about Glocks at both shows?

I'd love to hear an explanation from Mister "Plaid Shirt" about what the Hell is going on.

it is possible that the show brings their own security. I have been to Marlborough in the past and the security on the way in was always a Marlborough cop. I don't ever remember anyone checking to see what i bought on the way out but that may have changed. I sort of gave up on these shows, too crowded and not many deals.

 

[Len-2A Training]

it is possible that the show brings their own security. I have been to Marlborough in the past and the security on the way in was always a Marlborough cop. I don't ever remember anyone checking to see what i bought on the way out but that may have changed. I sort of gave up on these shows, too crowded and not many deals.

Nope, the uniformed guys in Marlboro come with the venue. I knew someone (years ago) that worked for them and I listened to Carole bitch about the cost for a huge number of security personnel that she had to pay for when using that venue. Yes, they would also typically have 1 Marlboro cop and 1 Marlboro firefighter on the detail there as well, but that is SOP at all venues and mandated by the town (union contracts).

 

[Wheeler686]

So let me get this straight. Some of the contributors of this thread would be the first to proclaim to the public, the press, and government regulators that THERE IS NO GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE IN MASSACHUSETTS! All gun dealers must comply with the same laws and regulations as if the sale tookplace in a gun store (including 940 CMR 16.00)

However, when it is brought to the attention of gun show management that a particular dealer is showing guns that in fact not in compliance with ALL of the same laws and regulations (including 940 CMR 16.00); and that particular dealer is requested by the management to refrain from displaying those firearms in question, but allows the dealer to continue to participate in the gun show, even though the dealer violated the terms of the gun show contract – It’s the management who is being a dick?

That same dealer returns to another show, again displays the same non-compliant firearms in question (Actually, there is no question. The Mass. AG has singled out this particular manufacturer’s handguns as not being in compliance with 940 CMR 16.00) Sure, the dealer might have been arguing that he was only selling the guns in question to credentialed law enforcement officers, but I suspect that is not what was going on here.

During the show, management is for the second time notified by a third party that this particular dealer is showing guns that are in violation of 940CMR 16.00 and the management exercises their right to toss the dealer for non-compliance with all governmental requirements. Again, notwithstanding Mr. plaid shirt’s angry tone, it’s management who is in the wrong? I just don’t get it.

I applaud any dealer for “stickin’ it to the man” and putting their FFL in jeopardy to prove a very valid point about MA gun laws; and the guy in the plaid shirt could have been more cordial to the dealer. But there are many dealers who depend on the income from these shows to put food on the table. Stunts like this just give cities and towns the reason they are looking for to deny gun show permits in the future.

 

[slap shot]

Displaying guns is a crime now.

#glockbuyingleolivesmatter

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

So let me get this straight. Some of the contributors of this thread would be the first to proclaim to the public, the press, and government regulators that THERE IS NO GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE IN MASSACHUSETTS! All gun dealers must comply with the same laws and regulations as if the sale tookplace in a gun store (including 940 CMR 16.00)

However, when it is brought to the attention of gun show management that a particular dealer is showing guns that in fact not in compliance with ALL of the same laws and regulations (including 940 CMR 16.00); and that particular dealer is requested by the management to refrain from displaying those firearms in question, but allows the dealer to continue to participate in the gun show, even though the dealer violated the terms of the gun show contract – It’s the management who is being a dick?

That same dealer returns to another show, again displays the same non-compliant firearms in question (Actually, there is no question. The Mass. AG has singled out this particular manufacturer’s handguns as not being in compliance with 940 CMR 16.00) Sure, the dealer might have been arguing that he was only selling the guns in question to credentialed law enforcement officers, but I suspect that is not what was going on here.

During the show, management is for the second time notified by a third party that this particular dealer is showing guns that are in violation of 940CMR 16.00 and the management exercises their right to toss the dealer for non-compliance with all governmental requirements. Again, notwithstanding Mr. plaid shirt’s angry tone, it’s management who is in the wrong? I just don’t get it.

I applaud any dealer for “stickin’ it to the man” and putting their FFL in jeopardy to prove a very valid point about MA gun laws; and the guy in the plaid shirt could have been more cordial to the dealer. But there are many dealers who depend on the income from these shows to put food on the table. Stunts like this just give cities and towns the reason they are looking for to deny gun show permits in the future.

FWIW I was told that I had to take my Glock off display (I don't sell only display a personal collection) that it is ILLEGAL for a private citizen to even possess any kiind of GLOCK in Mass. Plaid shirt implied that I was breaking the law by owning one and I was going to be in trouble if I didn't hide it. I double checked with the FRB and evidently so did he and he about an hour later apologize and said that as a private citizen I could posses one. Oh by the way, the gunshow loophole is not about what guns are legal and what are not, it is about background checks IMOP

 

[EJFudd]

So let me get this straight. Some of the contributors of this thread would be the first to proclaim to the public, the press, and government regulators that THERE IS NO GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE IN MASSACHUSETTS! All gun dealers must comply with the same laws and regulations as if the sale took place in a gun store (including 940 CMR 16.00).

I think you know that the silly AG's Regs ("consumer protection", my butt!) have zero to do with the infamous "Gun Show Loophole", a fantasy invention of the dishonest, leftist, gun-grabbing community. I mean... come on now!

Your point about the terms of a contract between the show promoter and the individual vendors having been violated sounds a lot more plausible. It also makes me much more suspicious that the "offended" third party in all this was probably another vendor who felt he or she was losing sales to the vendor selling the Glocks. That would help explain the claim that this nonsense actually started back at the last Foxboro show.

That said, the vendor in question (selling the Glocks) has been doing these shows for a very long time without any prior trouble whatsoever. This is something new from what I can tell and it was pretty damn ugly how it all went down. It certainly could have been handled a lot better by the infamous man in plaid. There was no need for the ugliness and embarrassment of throwing out a well-respected dealer with 3 cops on the scene to help prevent violence. Give me an f'ing break.

 

[Chet0729]

Nope, the uniformed guys in Marlboro come with the venue. I knew someone (years ago) that worked for them and I listened to Carole bitch about the cost for a huge number of security personnel that she had to pay for when using that venue. Yes, they would also typically have 1 Marlboro cop and 1 Marlboro firefighter on the detail there as well, but that is SOP at all venues and mandated by the town (union contracts).

i only saw the guy inside by where they would do the stupid ticket drop thing and he was a Marlborough cop. I'm sure they used rentals as well.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Wheeler686,

Displaying and selling are two different things! Even Ben Cartwright was hassled at this same show . . . even though he is NOT a dealer and not selling at the show, he pays to merely display a personal collection. No matter how you slice it, that shows that show management was "over the top".

Secondly yes, any MA dealer can sell new Glocks to LEOs, only need to SEE credentials for the sale to be perfectly legal and exempt from 940 CMR 16 (written in black and white in the CMR).

Thirdly, show management were hassling dealers over ALL Glocks, regardless of generation, DOB (prior to 10/21/1998 is also exempt from 940 CMR 16 and can be sold to any LTC-A holder).

Yes, some dealers are selling to those that they shouldn't and when the promoter is made aware of it, they have a moral obligation to inform said dealer to cease that behavior, but they still don't have to hide all the Glocks. If I don't see it (LE) from some random dealer I'm certainly not going to ask what he has under his counter, so it's a lost sale.

And by the way . . . "what gun show permit" are you referring to??? There is no such thing. I've inquired before since I was proposing one at one of my gun clubs. The town will require a police detail and perhaps a fire detail but there is no permit. The venue owns the property and can rent to whomever they want for any legal use and gun shows are still a legal use.

 

[Wheeler686]

I guess I stand corrected. FFLs are not required to comply with the same laws and regulations (CMRs) for sales at occur at a gun show as they would in a store, and the management of the gun show was wrong for singling out that dealer.

I'm not sure why Ben was also singled out among all the other participants who were legally selling, offering for sale, and/or displaying Glock handguns at the show, and who were in fact in compliance with CMR 940 16.00. I was there on Sunday, and I seem to recall many dealers were selling Glock handguns. If my memory serves, Plaid shirt would have had to walk past several rows of dealers tables, some also displaying/offering for sale Glock handguns to get to Ben. Maybe the man in the plaid shirt had a beef with the BPD back in the day?

Maybe places like Lexington, Boston, Brookline etc. are clamoring to host gun shows, and would welcome the opportunity to work with a gun show promoter from NY to bring a varied selection of firearms to sell in their town, in full support of the Second Amendment rights of their citizens. Again, I don't know. I have never tried to put on a gun show before.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Thirdly, show management were hassling dealers over ALL Glocks, regardless of generation, DOB (prior to 10/21/1998 is also exempt from 940 CMR 16 and can be sold to any LTC-A holder).

... provided said Glock was possessed on a MA LTC prior to that date

I guess I stand corrected. FFLs are not required to comply with the same laws and regulations (CMRs) for sales at occur at a gun show as they would in a store, and the management of the gun show was wrong for singling out that dealer.

What is your source for this gem of wisdom? (I assume we are talking about sales to non-LEO, non-FFL LTC holders).

 

[Wheeler686]

What is your source for this gem of wisdom? (I assume we are talking about sales to non-LEO, non-FFL LTC holders).

Nearly 75 posts in this thread (not including the turnpike comments) over the span of four days filled with "the promoter was wrong for singling this one dealer for selling Glocks" before it dawns on someone (Bulletproof) that maybe there was a good reason to toss the dealer (Violation of 940 CMR 16.00)... Just sayin'

 

[Len-2A Training]

... provided said Glock was possessed on a MA LTC prior to that date

Rob, you are losing your touch.

That would only be true if the Glock model was not on the EOPS List. Since all but the G18 (AFAIK) is on the EOPS List, all Glocks with a DOB prior to 10/21/1998 can be sold legally in MA to any LTC-A holder.

Nearly 75 posts in this thread (not including the turnpike comments) over the span of four days filled with "the promoter was wrong for singling this one dealer for selling Glocks" before it dawns on someone (Bulletproof) that maybe there was a good reason to toss the dealer (Violation of 940 CMR 16.00)... Just sayin'

Perhaps you are correct . . . about this one dealer. However, there seemed to be a pattern here of harassment by the promoter. Anyone who legally possessed a brand new machine gun (i.e. SOT) could EXHIBIT said gun legally at a show, they couldn't sell it, but they could exhibit it. Ben was merely exhibiting guns, so there was no excuse for their behavior with him . . . and who knows what other dealers were hassled and we haven't heard about it yet.

 

[n1oty]

Nearly 75 posts in this thread (not including the turnpike comments) over the span of four days filled with "the promoter was wrong for singling this one dealer for selling Glocks" before it dawns on someone (Bulletproof) that maybe there was a good reason to toss the dealer (Violation of 940 CMR 16.00)... Just sayin'

On the flip side, I have seen nothing in this thread that indicates whether the Glocks in question at this particular show and on the table of this particular vendor were of a vintage that is even covered by the AG's consumer protection regulations. What we do know is that the vendor in question has responded in this thread defending his operation and I presume he is at least fairly knowledgeable WRT these regulations. Second, a Marlboro cop looked at the Glock's for sale at this table and had no concerns. Third, based on post #101, it is patently obvious that at least one other vendor/display at that show was hassled over this very Glock issue based on OBVIOUSLY faulty legal interpretations of the out-of-state show promoters. At what point are you willing to admit that the vendor in this case is most likely in the right and the show promoters are the ones who are wrong??

 

[Wheeler686]

On the flip side, I have seen nothing in this thread that indicates whether the Glocks in question at this particular show and on the table of this particular vendor were of a vintage that is even covered by the AG's consumer protection regulations.

See Post #32 by NFAVT:

It was the show promoter pointing out that new Glocks are not approved by the AG for sale to civilians even though on the EOPS list. It got heated and the cops were in attendance

(Emphasis added)

 

[n1oty]

See Post #32 by NFAVT: (Emphasis added)

But were the actual Glocks on the table "new" glock's?? Post #32 is the report of a bystander. The actual vendor did not report that he was selling post Oct 1998 Glock's and post #101 plainly refers to being hassled at the same show by the same people for Glock's that were clearly not covered by the AG's regulations. I think the record here is clear that the show promoters exhibited incredible ignorance WRT laws and regulations pertaining to Glock's. Somehow, I have a hard time believing that the show promoters possibly got it right with the vendor under discussion and got the identical issue incredibly wrong with Ben Cartwright SASS.

 

[mursenary4]

its sad we even have to debate over this stuff

 

[bulletproof]

So if I buy a gun online and a FFL 'transfers' it to me the AG's regulations don't apply? It's not a sale, rental, or lease.[/QUOTE]

Nope, not correct, it is still a transfer. UNLESS you can find a dealer who will swim upstream against the rules, or laws, or whatever anyone wants to call them. All transfers, by a dealer, which is the only way you will get a gun from an online sale, must still comply. And regardless of how many Glocks or WHATEVER kind of gun is on the list, they still must comply with the AG's idiotic regs for the "transfer" or sale, or whatever, to be legal for the dealer to complete. The AG has usurped the power of the legislature when the original regs were put into place. Perhaps THAT is a way to get them nullified.........................by getting your legislators to be po'd that the AG feels she knows more than they did, and went over their heads with the regs. (Not that the legislators "know" that much anyways.)!

The Sturbridge show sure didn't seem to great today, IMHO.

 

[bulletproof]

I guess I stand corrected. FFLs are not required to comply with the same laws and regulations (CMRs) for sales at occur at a gun show as they would in a store, and the management of the gun show was wrong for singling out that dealer.

FFL dealers ARE absolutely required to follow the same, exact rules, regulations and laws at a gun show, as they must follow at their brick and mortar storefront. The gun show is considered their shop while they are set up there, and ALL state and federal regs must be followed. There is zero difference.