Manslaughter charges filed after kill shot fired 8 minutes post invasion. Wild story out of chesterfield MA.

Can you imagine the 8 1/2 minute conversation these two had before the second shot?
That would be awesome to hear.
Something out of a movie, all that talk, probably most likely all about her, then BLAM, right in the back of the head.
holy crap dude.
 
M1911 said:
The perp was apparently face down, bleeding out on the floor. Deadly force is not legally justified unless you are in immediate threat of death or grave bodily injury. It's pretty hard to argue that you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury when you shoot someone in the back of the head while they are on the floor bleeding out.

Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for the deceased. But I think Mr. Camp's defense attorney is going to have a very hard time keeping him out of jail.

In the unlikely even that someone invades my house, I want to win both battles -- the one at the scene and the one in the courtroom. I'd rather not spend my retirement years rotting in prison.
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You break into my home at 12:30 in the morning, you‘re getting a large dose of deadly force. Camp should have emptied the magazine into Letendre right away. I think the issue is going to be proving the second shot came 8 minutes later. The 911 dispatcher didn’t hear it. Only the testimony of the girlfriend and she could be mistaken.
 
Tartakovsky said:
You break into my home at 12:30 in the morning, you‘re getting a large dose of deadly force. Camp should have emptied the magazine into Letendre right away. I think the issue is going to be proving the second shot came 8 minutes later. The 911 dispatcher didn’t hear it. Only the testimony of the girlfriend and she could be mistaken.
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The issue isn’t so much the time of the second shot, but whether or not the perp was an immediate threat of danger or grave bodily injury at the time the second shot was fired. If the second shot came one minute after the first shot, but the forensic evidence shows that the perp was face down on the floor when he was shot in the back of the head, then Mr. Camp would still be in hot water.
 
I know Brian, worked with him for a while, even sold him a rifle. He's a solid dude, he is a member on here, and one of us, and he certainly knows what the self defense laws are here, so lets stop speculating about what happened. Idk what his reason was for the second shot, certainly not gonna ask him right now, but I'm sure he had a justifiable reason for it. Bottom line is this a**h*** entered his house in the middle of the night, clearly intending to pick a fight and cause harm, and he had every right to defend himself, his gf, and the kids, one of which is his kid.

Y'all also need to remember The Hampshire County DA's office is very anti gun and anti conservative, and anti self defense, they have to stay on the good graces of the liberal utopias of Northampton & Amherst after all. I see no way that Brian wouldn't be charged, even if there was only one shot fired, just because of the county he is in. It will be a freaking miracle if his jury pool isn't a quagmire of purple haired lgbtqrstuvwxyz activists and anti gun hippies. Brian is a very working class right wing type of guy, drives a diesel truck, rides dirt bikes, loves hunting and shooting, values his property rights, hates Joe Biden, etc. He's gonna have a target on his back in that court system because of that also. These people fundamentally hate people like him and I'm sure it didn't take long for them to sniff that out.
 
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appraiser said:
so the lesson here is once you decide that you are going to shoot, shoot to stop the threat, make sure you get the job done by repeated pulling of the trigger, but don't empty the mag because it doesn't look good
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Absolutely empty the mag, just not in a 1" group. Throw some fliers due to 'extreme panic and adrenaline rush.' And have your lawyer on speed dial.
 
M1911 said:
The perp was apparently face down, bleeding out on the floor. Deadly force is not legally justified unless you are in immediate threat of death or grave bodily injury. It's pretty hard to argue that you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury when you shoot someone in the back of the head while they are on the floor bleeding out.

Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for the deceased. But I think Mr. Camp's defense attorney is going to have a very hard time keeping him out of jail.

In the unlikely even that someone invades my house, I want to win both battles -- the one at the scene and the one in the courtroom. I'd rather not spend my retirement years rotting in prison.
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We dont know how the invader was. We only know the "theory" the prosecutor has.

For all we know the guy could have stood up, maybe turned around and that is when the second shot occurred.

However, the fact that it is to the back of the head (or so they say), will be tough. Because even if the guy was up, he was facing the other way. But why was he facing the other way?
Maybe he got up, wrestled the home owner and turned around just as the home owner was pulling the trigger.

There is too much we don't know.
 
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Broc said:
We dont know how the invader was. We only know the "theory" the prosecutor has.

For all we know the guy could have stood up, maybe turned around and that is when the second shot occurred.

However, the fact that it is to the back of the head (or so they say), that will be tough. Because even if the guy was up, he was facing the other way. But why was he facing the other way?
Maybe he got up, wrestled the home owner and turned around just as the home owner was pulling the trigger.

There is too much we don't know.
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Yep. As discussed in other threads, the press on this beat is almost always carrying the water for the PD/prosecutor. The narrative will be presented.
 
SFC13557 said:
Yup, it will be interesting to listen to his lawyer's explanation of the reason for the 2nd shot.
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Covid!

"I was was holding him at gunpoint until police arrived and, as I was feeling ill with Covid symptoms, I sneezed and the gun went off."

The Libs will more than happy to add one to the Covid Death Count! No less believable than half the other deaths attributed to the WU-FLU!!!

Damn. I forgot. Slippy Trippy Joe said the pandemic is over............
 
appraiser said:
Massachusetts does not have a Florida type "Stand Your Ground" law so he is FUBAR'd

this will boil down to one thing

Was there a threat or would a reasonable person feel there was imminent danger of severe injury or death
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Mass has the Castle Doctrine:

"Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling"

My Wife and Three children are the most precious people in my life. If threatened I will defend them.

(I am late to this thread...)
 
moojpg2 said:
I know Brian, worked with him for a while, even sold him a rifle. He's a solid dude, he is a member on here, and one of us, and he certainly knows what the self defense laws are here, so lets stop speculating about what happened. Idk what his reason was for the second shot, certainly not gonna ask him right now, but I'm sure he had a justifiable reason for it. Bottom line is this a**h*** entered his house in the middle of the night, clearly intending to pick a fight and cause harm, and he had every right to defend himself, his gf, and the kids, one of which is his kid.
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Nobody here is saying he shouldn't have defended himself. Nobody here is sorry this dirtbag is dead. Nobody here is against this homeowner shooting said dirtbag, even killing him.

But.

You shoot to eliminate the threat. This guy was a threat, so the homeowner shot him. Well and good. If, at that point, he stopped being a threat? Then another shot wasn't justified. That's going to be a pretty simple question for the court to sort out, I think, regardless of whatever verbal testimony comes from whomever. It'll be obvious where he was hit initially, where he was lying, what position his body was in during the aftermath of the initial shoot, how he moved subsequently and whether he was standing or lying down when he administered the second shot.

A back-of-the-head shot is always, always, always going to be a very dicey thing to do, legally. No matter what the circumstances.

moojpg2 said:
Y'all also need to remember The Hampshire County DA's office is very anti gun and anti conservative, and anti self defense, they have to stay on the good graces of the liberal utopias of Northampton & Amherst after all. I see no way that Brian wouldn't be charged, even if there was only one shot fired, just because of the county he is in. It will be a freaking miracle if his jury pool isn't a quagmire of purple haired lgbtqrstuvwxyz activists and anti gun hippies. Brian is a very working class right wing type of guy, drives a diesel truck, rides dirt bikes, loves hunting and shooting, values his property rights, hates Joe Biden, etc. He's gonna have a target on his back in that court system because of that also. These people fundamentally hate people like him and I'm sure it didn't take long for them to sniff that out.
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Granted.

I'm not reading the DA's statements or the local coverage, apart from the fact the second shot went to the back of the head. That's very difficult for me to justify in my mind, legally.
 
moojpg2 said:
I know Brian, worked with him for a while, even sold him a rifle. He's a solid dude, he is a member on here, and one of us, and he certainly knows what the self defense laws are here, so lets stop speculating about what happened. Idk what his reason was for the second shot, certainly not gonna ask him right now, but I'm sure he had a justifiable reason for it. Bottom line is this a**h*** entered his house in the middle of the night, clearly intending to pick a fight and cause harm, and he had every right to defend himself, his gf, and the kids, one of which is his kid.

Y'all also need to remember The Hampshire County DA's office is very anti gun and anti conservative, and anti self defense, they have to stay on the good graces of the liberal utopias of Northampton & Amherst after all. I see no way that Brian wouldn't be charged, even if there was only one shot fired, just because of the county he is in. It will be a freaking miracle if his jury pool isn't a quagmire of purple haired lgbtqrstuvwxyz activists and anti gun hippies. Brian is a very working class right wing type of guy, drives a diesel truck, rides dirt bikes, loves hunting and shooting, values his property rights, hates Joe Biden, etc. He's gonna have a target on his back in that court system because of that also. These people fundamentally hate people like him and I'm sure it didn't take long for them to sniff that out.
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Can't he get a bench trial?
 
Picton said:
Nobody here is saying he shouldn't have defended himself. Nobody here is sorry this dirtbag is dead. Nobody here is against this homeowner shooting said dirtbag, even killing him.

But.

You shoot to eliminate the threat. This guy was a threat, so the homeowner shot him. Well and good. If, at that point, he stopped being a threat? Then another shot wasn't justified. That's going to be a pretty simple question for the court to sort out, I think, regardless of whatever verbal testimony comes from whomever. It'll be obvious where he was hit initially, where he was lying, what position his body was in during the aftermath of the initial shoot, how he moved subsequently and whether he was standing or lying down when he administered the second shot.

A back-of-the-head shot is always, always, always going to be a very dicey thing to do, legally. No matter what the circumstances.



Granted.

I'm not reading the DA's statements or the local coverage, apart from the fact the second shot went to the back of the head. That's very difficult for me to justify in my mind, legally.
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Don't expect the truth from the media because you're not going to get it. If they want to paint the guy as a blood thirsty killer they will. Believe me if the defendant was a black man and said he was going to get whacked by maga extremists there wouldn't even be charges.
 
Picton said:
An autopsy, plus whatever blood evidence there's likely to be on the floor, is likely to give the prosecution a VERY convincing story that this guy wasn't all that frisky at that point.

You're right that it's speculation HERE. Now. By the time it reaches the courtroom, it won't be speculation. It'll be conclusions based on evidence. I don't trust detectives either, but if I were a juror, you'd have a hard time convincing me a coup-de-grace in the back of the head after eight minutes of bleeding was the homeowner's only reasonable course of action. Or even his most reasonable course of action.



Not really. I think she was walking around, moving in and out of the house.
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Anything is possible .
I've always been of the "Don't start nothing there won't be nothing" mindset.
Chances are if the guy is enough of a wacko to break in in the middle of the night to go after them he will be back after the few months he would have done in jail to finish the job.
They won't even tell you when they let him out.
He won't now.
 
VetteGirlMA said:
Don't expect the truth from the media because you're not going to get it. If they want to paint the guy as a blood thirsty killer they will. Believe me if the defendant was a black man and said he was going to get whacked by maga extremists there wouldn't even be charges.
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I'm not paying much attention to how he's "painted." I don't much care about his temperament or personality. I care about whether him killing this guy was done in self-defense or not. To me, given a fatal shot to the back of the melon, "self-defense" is an uphill struggle.
 
Dadstoys said:
Anything is possible .
I've always been of the "Don't start nothing there won't be nothing" mindset.
Chances are if the guy is enough of a wacko to break in in the middle of the night to go after them he will be back after the few months he would have done in jail to finish the job.
They won't even tell you when let him out.
He won't now.
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That's not a safe road to go down, either. You can't eliminate people today for what they might or might not do in a "few months." It doesn't work that way.
 
Picton said:
That's not a safe road to go down, either. You can't eliminate people today for what they might or might not do in a "few months." It doesn't work that way.
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You sure about that ?
Would you bet the safety or lives of your wife and children on that?
You have a proven threat to them , Can you protect them 24/7 for the rest of their lives ?
Going to spend every night for the rest of your life sleeping with one eye open ?
Going to wonder every day when you leave for work what you might find when you get home?
This guy wasn't just making idol treats , he actually went through with it .
If the victim wasn't armed that night , how would it have ended ?
Doubtful he was there to deliver fresh baked brownies .

There was another case of MA. stupidity years ago where an ex was stalking a gal.
He waited outside her place of work and stabbed her , not fatal.
While he was in jail he told the prison shrink at least a half dozen times that the first thing he was going to do when he got out was "Kill that bitch."
Despite that the parole board in their wisdom decided to release him anyway .
Neither she or her family had any idea he was even out.
Guy went directly from jail to her home , dragged her out of the house by the hair right in front of her elderly parents and finished the job.

It's not "Speculation" when someone has proven what they are willing to do.
 
I don't know if it's been said here yet but the only thing that can help this guy is if his defense attorney goes after the girlfriends recollection of the second shot. If I read it right only the girlfriend said she heard the second shot but it wasn't picked up by the 911 call
 
Picton said:
I'm not paying much attention to how he's "painted." I don't much care about his temperament or personality. I care about whether him killing this guy was done in self-defense or not. To me, given a fatal shot to the back of the melon, "self-defense" is an uphill struggle.
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But you don't know how it happened. That is the point. Even the news presents it as "a theory".

For all we know, the first and second shot could have happened within half a second and what the girlfriend heard was a third shot that didn't hit anyone. Maybe she didn't hear anything.

Even if the shots were 8min apart, they are basing this on her saying "I heard a second shot", but she could have been wrong. Maybe it was someone lighting fireworks a few blocks away. Maybe that second shot happened, but not 8min later.
 
Most of the prosecution's case will hinge on when the second shot was fired.

Good rule of thumb that anything you say can and will be used against you in court.

If girlfriend/wife is on 911 and first shot is recorded and she indicates maybe second shot fired at 8.5 minutes, that will be the crux of the case.
Another reason to make the emergency call and get off the phone...that established the timeline.

Anyone in my house at 0030 that is not invited is a threat until determined otherwise.

Is anyone surprised that he is being charged two shots or not?

My town has <10 percent LTC licenses issued to its population. There are more firearms in houses, but one's position on owning firearms is an outlier in this state.
You will be negatively judged in a firearm incident when firearm ownership is so low, no way around that one.

Consider how much jail time some of the January 6th "rioters" are getting for just setting foot in the capital. Do you think they got a fair trial?

Hope it works out for the guy, I am on his side.
 
Dadstoys said:
Going to spend every night for the rest of your life sleeping with one eye open ?
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That's precisely how I'll be behaving for the next several years. In jail. Which is where I'll expect to go if I summarily execute someone.

You're ignoring where I said I'm not shedding a tear for this guy. But I live in the real world, not the one where I "should be able to" do the right thing without consequences. Good luck doing it your way.

Broc said:
Even if the shots were 8min apart, they are basing this on her saying "I heard a second shot", but she could have been wrong. Maybe it was someone lighting fireworks a few blocks away. Maybe that second shot happened, but not 8min later.
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That's why I'm not getting hung up about the time. 8 seconds, 8 minutes, or 8 hours, that don't matter to me. If the perp's not a threat anymore, I stop shooting.

YMMV.
 
moojpg2 said:
so lets stop speculating about what happened.
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This is NES. Speculating about these types of events is pretty much a foregone conclusion.
moojpg2 said:
He's a solid dude, he is a member on here, and one of us,
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I was surprised that no one had asked yet. Usually asked within a page of replies.

moojpg2 said:
Idk what his reason was for the second shot, certainly not gonna ask him right now, but I'm sure he had a justifiable reason for it. Bottom line is this a**h*** entered his house in the middle of the night, clearly intending to pick a fight and cause harm, and he had every right to defend himself, his gf, and the kids, one of which is his kid.
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I appreciate that it is too early to ask for details. But they matter.
If he did have a justifiable reason for it, I think folks would want to help in anyway they could. I know I would. And I bet he could use some help as soon as possible.
 
drgrant said:
The sad thing if he had done things differently he could have gotten away with it. And even given the first shot theres a good chance the guy would have died anyways, getting the same outcome with less legal jeapordy.
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At this point, his best hope may be trying to prove that the guy was already dead from the first shot. If he can get the jury to buy that, worst they can hit him with is abuse of a corpse.
 
fencer said:
I appreciate that it is too early to ask for details. But they matter.
If he did have a justifiable reason for it, I think folks would want to help in anyway they could. I know I would. And I bet he could use some help as soon as possible.
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I don't disagree, but the guy would be BEYOND STUPID to comment on this here.
 

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