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[MA] Precision Pistol .22lr recommendation

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div0

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Hi,

I live in MA and would like to get a nice pistol for precision pistol competitions. Am not very good yet, still need to work on my technique clearly, but I want a pistol good enough to outshoot me (and ideally everyone else in the club) for a few years.

So my requirements basically are:

- .22lr
- If benched, must hit at least the 9 ring on the slow fire target (i.e. shoot at worst 9 MOA groups). That'll ensure that the pistol itself is capable of 290 points on the national match course, and thus anything lower is the shooter's fault, not the gun's.
- 1911-ish grip angle, as I'm also gonna shoot .45 ACP at times and not having to adjust for different grips is a plus.
- Picatinny rail, ideally together with fallback iron sights (preferably but not required to be adjustable) to use in case the dot fails. If rail is long, I may consider putting a small scope on it just for the hell of it, i.e. extra fun. Bonus points if rail is not attached to the slide to keep the optics alive for longer.
- So easy to clean I'll actually do it. I'm bad at this stuff. The 1911 field stripping procedure is about as complex as I can tolerate.
- Easy and effective to lock against children, just in case the safe wasn't good enough (really love Ruger Mark IV's approach with the hole in the bolt there, as I can use one of my "known hard to pick" padlocks once I heatshrink the shackle to it won't scratch up the gun, but AFAIK most guns at least allow for a cable lock through the action, which is kinda OK).
- Target trigger - with pull weight around 2 to 4 lbs - possible. Would give the stock trigger a try first, though, just to see if I really want that modification - so good factory trigger is sure a plus. May also need someone to install that - do gun stores generally do that?
- Extra magazines need to be readily available. Will need a total of four magazines minimum.
- Actually obtainable in Massachusetts (likely means: must be on the roster).
- Not banned by possibly upcoming HD.4420. In particular, no threaded barrel.

What I've considered for now is:

- Ruger Mark IV Target 22/45: not on the MA roster (except for the Lite version; but the Lite is rather short, will it even be accurate enough? Otherwise, I could clearly get both the 22/45 Lite and the Target, and exchange their uppers, to get a 22/45 Target - just what to do with the other frankengun, basically a Standard Lite? How would I sell that which I am not gonna use, given it's not on the roster? Is it even legal to buy two guns, fully well knowing one of them [or two halves] will be sold soon later, even if to a FFL?)
- 1911 + Nelson conversion: does it matter which 1911 to start with (other than quality of the trigger)? Does the MA roster requirement apply to the conversion? If so, that'd be bad, as it's not listed. How hard is it to undo the conversion and use the same gun as .45 ACP again, compared to the usual 1911 field stripping? If switching calibers isn't much more complicated than the cleaning one has to do anyway, this is basically two guns for the price of... two, then (OTOH this setup means I can't use it if I ever want to carry, so it's not REALLY two fully usable guns in that setup, while with any other option, I'd probably opt for a separate .45 ACP gun eventually, ).
- Browning Buck Mark SS Camper: seems cleaning instructions don't even require any disassembly - is that actually true in practice? And does this gun hit stuff well enough?
- SW22 Victory Target: have to stay away from the Performance Center version as it may count as a salt weapon soon. Also, definitely not a 1911-ish grip angle, but at least not like a Ruger Mark IV Standard.

Are any of these really bad ideas, especially accuracy wise? Anything on the MA roster I really should consider too?

Not opposed to revolvers either, but no concrete ones on the list. If it's a revolver, as I won't have time to manually load a cylinder before a shot string, speedloaders definitely must be available.

Thanks!
 
I shoot a Marvel conversion, benched at 50 yards Marvel sent a target group that was .501 inches with five shots, have shot Marvel for 15 years, put it on top of my 45 frame. so you have same grips and trigger. Iron sights are very nice.
 
Unless you are consistently shooting above, say, 275 now you probably are nowhere near the point of worrying this much and go with any of the most common pistols used in bullseye because they will work fine for you - Browning, High Standard, Ruger, etc. A basic 22/45 if that is the grip you really want, with a rail and your dot of choice. There are plenty of FFLs that would transfer an off-list 22/45; you're overthinking it.

If you want to take it up a notch, just get a Volquartsen. I use a Scorpion LLV upper on a Ruger MkIII Target frame. It's a little heavier than a Scorpion or Black Mamba but this was years ago before they were building separate guns, and I had already tuned the MkIII internals with all the Volquartsen parts. And I like how the extra weight balanced it.

You might also consider this advice: get something basic now, become a better shooter over the next few seasons, and then switch to a next level pistol and your first gun becomes your backup match gun. In the meantime, try out other pistols from other folks on your team. You might realize you don't actually prefer the 1911 grip angle, or that you want a Walther or Pardini instead with a custom grip. If you decide to sell the first pistol, there will be plenty of people around who are getting into bullseye and will take it off your hands.

Note: I'm assuming you are talking about a pistol that will be used for the gallery match course, so if you're not, the above may not apply.
 
I made Pistoleer at Appleseed, when I borrowed someone's S&W Model 41 during a single round. If I had the money to blow...
 
i shot a kart 6" upper/barrel unit that was mated to an essex .45 frame. i shot a gold cup for .45 and centerfire matches. finding the right gun can be a chore. you can fall into one or go through many of them until you hit it. i went through the entire high standard target line up then on to a 41. nothing felt right, i couldn't shoot past 210's, so disappointing. a buddy i shot sunday trap with brought me his pistol to try. the one i own now. old dude this guy, had a popular gunsmith of the day make this pistol up for him just cause. me and the gun meshed, my scores rose dramatically...with the iron sights. those aim point big, clunky red dots had just hit the market, my team had a group buy...i tossed mine in the drawer and shot this very well with iron sights. i shot it 3 seasons before my buddy would sell it to me. won league most improved after my first season with the gun. i dredged up a photo of the war horse if anyone cares to look.

kart1.jpg
 
Not a bullseye shooter so take that into account.

Had a stainless 22/45 great gun (pre 2000?), grip not the greatest but could be modified. All controls easy to manipulate. I never did any upgrades but there are a ton of upgrades out there for the platform. Pain in the ass to clean

I was able to get an older model S&W 41. Only shot it a few times (3-400 rounds). Needs no mods, feels better than the 22/45. Easy to clean. Gave the 22/45 to my daughter.

Faced with your parameters I'd probably opt for the Ruger.
 
High Standard Victor is the same grip angle as a 1911.
Hard to beat a 41 and I still own it. Very nice guns available at many price points.
I shot a Pardini for years in the 280’s while I still had the 41. The grip angle is laid down to lock your wrist. Uncomfortable at first then it becomes just fine. I shouldn’t have sold it but it deserved to be shot more often after I left the club.
 
the 41 i had, i bought it new late 70's, muzzle light. that was my beef with that gun. i had the weights on and it still felt whippy. 6" barrel iirc. the gun i was shooting before this was a high standard victor that i bastardized. i took the rib off, mounted that old aimpoint on top and put the barrel weights out front. wrapped tennis grip wrap tape on the standard grips. was alright, but not where i wanted to be. some people i've found are natural shooters, like in any sport. they can pick up anything and make it work for them. others have to work and work to get to a proficient level.

i'm a big proponent of trying the gun. especially if you're using it in competition. shoot a couple practice matches with it if you can. you can end up doing what i did, just keep spending. op, you shoot on a team? what are they shooting, try their pistols out. i hate seeing someone toss a question out like this, then wait for you're 20 different answers. this group, it's rugers, smith 41's and volquartsen. good luck in your search and .22 pistol career.
 
Just get a used S&W model 41, put a red dot on it and you will be good to go. Once you feel comfortable with the pistol invest in a custom palm shelf grip. You will never grow out of this gun.
 
It's a local competition, nothing _huge_, lots of room to grow of course.

As for used guns in general - how can I be sure it isn't a lemon? Never bought a used gun before, so unless I have good ways to verify its condition before buying myself, I'd probably only trust the store I'd buy most of my ammo from on that (as they kinda have something to lose).

The S&W 41 would be somewhat above my "expected" price range, although not much more expensive than a good 1911 + a conversion, or "two Rugers to swap around", so I guess it's still kinda in the race. Gotta ask the people at the club about that one, as I sure will need its trigger modified (MA roster requirement is >10 lbs, apparently, which isn't just meh, but actually quite a lot).

Most there either shoot a converted 1911 (older Marvel or a current Nelson conversion), or Ruger Mark IV 22/45, so I am confident if I have any functional issue with any of those, I'll get some help right in the club. Sadly nobody has a Ruger Mark IV with the standard grip, everyone tells me to not take that one, but honestly? If I could try that out before buying, even just dry pointing, I'd probably figure out if that's really a problem for me.

My current high score on borrowed guns is about 220, and on a pellet pistol (with Glock-ish grip angle) I get up to 250 with "adjusted timed/rapid fire string, i.e. load one round, then shoot within 4 or 2 sec, respectively" (but of course, even benched I don't get that pellet pistol better than usually within the 8 ring on slow fire - so I know I _theoretically_ could do a bit better than that). So I certainly still have room to grow there, and probably won't need any "overkill".
 
mr. @div0, 220 is really a respectable score for a beginner. i'm assuming you are new to .22 bullseye shooting. people think it's the equipment but it's usually not. the key to good scores is usually between your ears...plus the knowledge of fundamentals. i've seen so many people think the better the gun, the better the scores. it doesn't work that way.
 
the mill still follows the law.

you can be fully within the law requirements and especially in 22 shoot whatever you want. talk to other competitors - they will show you how it is done without monkey business
 
I bought the Pardini thru a Waltham store that’s long gone.

Take your mind off the stupid roster list

There are many great used guns out there. As I wrote, Model 41 prices are all over the map and buying used is very easy. One look at any older gun speaks volumes on how it was cared for.
You will not find a mark on my 41 that is at least 20 years old if I had to guess. I bought it from another team member.
 
div0 said:
It's a local competition, nothing _huge_, lots of room to grow of course.

As for used guns in general - how can I be sure it isn't a lemon? Never bought a used gun before, so unless I have good ways to verify its condition before buying myself, I'd probably only trust the store I'd buy most of my ammo from on that (as they kinda have something to lose).

The S&W 41 would be somewhat above my "expected" price range, although not much more expensive than a good 1911 + a conversion, or "two Rugers to swap around", so I guess it's still kinda in the race. Gotta ask the people at the club about that one, as I sure will need its trigger modified (MA roster requirement is >10 lbs, apparently, which isn't just meh, but actually quite a lot).

Most there either shoot a converted 1911 (older Marvel or a current Nelson conversion), or Ruger Mark IV 22/45, so I am confident if I have any functional issue with any of those, I'll get some help right in the club. Sadly nobody has a Ruger Mark IV with the standard grip, everyone tells me to not take that one, but honestly? If I could try that out before buying, even just dry pointing, I'd probably figure out if that's really a problem for me.

My current high score on borrowed guns is about 220, and on a pellet pistol (with Glock-ish grip angle) I get up to 250 with "adjusted timed/rapid fire string, i.e. load one round, then shoot within 4 or 2 sec, respectively" (but of course, even benched I don't get that pellet pistol better than usually within the 8 ring on slow fire - so I know I _theoretically_ could do a bit better than that). So I certainly still have room to grow there, and probably won't need any "overkill".
Click to expand...

From S&W's website, including MA compliance:

  • Crisp Target Trigger Factor Set at 2.75 to 3.25 lbs.
 
Ah, good to know.

BTW, how does the SW22 (on the "formal target shooting" roster) compare to the SW41 (on the general one)?

And yes, I am aware that if I am lucky, I may just find a store. I mean, _I_ wouldn't be possibly breaking the law there anyway...

I just thought this isn't a question one can ask in a store. Like, is asking for a gun that's not on the roster "just as bad" as "mentioning the gun's for someone else"? Or is worst that can happen them saying "sorry no, we don't have that, but we can recommend this instead"?

And yeah, I'll also ask the others on the team where they got their guns.
 
Volquartsen upper.
Tandemkross Kraken lower.

[/thread]

What I describe above - VQ + TK lower - will shoot better than you and pretty kuch everyone at the club and at 50 feet you will get 0.5 or better groups with CCI Standard Velocity.

The other option is a Buckmark with a tac sol barrel - that is what I use, 0.5" or better groups all day.

Both options, race ready with everything you could ask for will cost you under $1,200 or around $1,200 for the VQ + TK combination. I will be building one of these soon, just waiting for hunting season to be over and decide.

PS: 9 MOA, even an SR22 can get 9MOA. if that is your standard, you can use almost any 22 handgun on the market.
 
Last edited:
Fixxah said:
@chris_1001 will be along shortly.
Click to expand...
I have 2 mk iv 22/45 lights

Kraken lower on one and standard upper on it. Other has a modified one lower and a standard upper as well.

I use them for speed steel. So i’m not using them for precision shooting

If I was I might go with pardini for bullseye or VQ for a more versatile gun all around.

My .02.

And yes, you can do the above in MA
 
> PS: 9 MOA, even an SR22 can get 9MOA. if that is your standard, you can use almost any 22 handgun on the market.

Now that's some good info. It seems to be hard to find this info in general, but yeah, if even a "bad gun" will shoot this good out of the box, this essentially means that all I need to get right for now is a grip and weight distribution that lets me keep the sights on target well, and of course a good trigger. Both are rather easy to test dry in a store (with permission, of course).

> Buckmark with a tac sol barrel

Indeed, sounds like a good option. And from what I understand from the above, I could even skip the barrel mod for now and replace it later when it seems like it might be useful (i.e. when/if I ever get to the point that shooting unsupported gets close to supported).
 
div0 said:
> PS: 9 MOA, even an SR22 can get 9MOA. if that is your standard, you can use almost any 22 handgun on the market.

Now that's some good info. It seems to be hard to find this info in general, but yeah, if even a "bad gun" will shoot this good out of the box, this essentially means that all I need to get right for now is a grip and weight distribution that lets me keep the sights on target well, and of course a good trigger. Both are rather easy to test dry in a store (with permission, of course).

> Buckmark with a tac sol barrel

Indeed, sounds like a good option. And from what I understand from the above, I could even skip the barrel mod for now and replace it later when it seems like it might be useful (i.e. when/if I ever get to the point that shooting unsupported gets close to supported).
Click to expand...

You could skip the barrel mod. Although it is very simple, drop in.

I would go with a 22/45 over the Buckmark only for 2 reasons:

1. Cleaning the 22/45 is easier.

2. You can get thumb rests / gas pedal for a 22/45. A Buckamrk would need to be drilled or you need a barrel that has a rail under.

But the Buckmark is so accurate. It is what I use for steel challenge. I just don't like having to remove the barrel to clean it. It only takes an additional 3 minutes or so, so it is more of a personal thing. The barrel doesn't need to be removed, but if you don't, you have to remove the sight. I have done that twice and it retained zero, but I don't trust it, so I remove the barrel instead, which comes off with the sight attached.
 
Broc said:
You could skip the barrel mod. Although it is very simple, drop in.

I would go with a 22/45 over the Buckmark only for 2 reasons:

1. Cleaning the 22/45 is easier.

2. You can get thumb rests / gas pedal for a 22/45. A Buckamrk would need to be drilled or you need a barrel that has a rail under.

But the Buckmark is so accurate. It is what I use for steel challenge. I just don't like having to remove the barrel to clean it. It only takes an additional 3 minutes or so, so it is more of a personal thing. The barrel doesn't need to be removed, but if you don't, you have to remove the sight. I have done that twice and it retained zero, but I don't trust it, so I remove the barrel instead, which comes off with the sight attached.
Click to expand...
7znzqu.jpg
 
Forget about the precision pistol, that is sooo yesterday. Precision Rimfire Rifle is where it’s at nowadays.
:)


It certainly sounds like a S&W 41 or a Ruger MK III or IV are the guns for you.
 

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