M16 ownership in MA?

[Jsfitzgerald85]

The M16 itself sells for about $800.

Presence of the serial number on the pre-86 transferable full auto list runs at least $20K.


What he was probably referring to is the MGL that states that a MG license may be issued only to a LE trainer or a "bona fide collector". There is a CMR that establishes that holding a C&R FFL makes one a "bona fide collector". Some departments that issue MG license require proof of "bona fide collector" status, the C&R is the easiest way to do that.

This means that "because I want to enjoy shooting them" does not meet the MA criteria for a MG license. You need to frame your application in conformance with state law.

That being said, there are departments that have a blanket policy of not issuing MG licenses because they are "too dangerous". I am aware of court appeals that have been made regarding such denials but to the best of my knowledge none have been successful.

Yes, that is what i was referring to, thank you

 

[browncoat]

To rub the burn in a bit more, just remember that in 1985 a full-auto M16 only cost a few hundred more than an AR-15 ($200 tax stamp + cost of auto parts). Without the hughes amendment, I imagine there would currently be several times as many full auto or burst fire guns in civilian hands, since inflation adjusted prices are actually down on, for example, the AR.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

while it helps satisfy the "bona fide collector" or whatever wording is in the law--it's not part of the law.

No, but it is in a CMR which means the issuing authority will have a hard time denying you because you are not a "bona fide collector".

Unfortunately, "because I don't issue them" has been accepted as a valid reason for denial by the MA courts.

 

[Cabinetman]

Ya wanna know something funny? Here in CT we can most certainly own MGs. But, there is one wrinkle. It can NOT be select fire, period. So, you CAN own an M4 or M16 as long as it has a switch that says 'Safe" and "Fire". Same goes for any other MG or SMG. Stupid, no???

Rome

 

[thormx538]

Factory Colt M16s are like $40k.

You can get rewelds/conversion Colts for less than that.

Cheapest registered receiver will be some off-brand thing that may or may not be cast, and will still be $17k+ for the receiver.

Heck even lightning links are $10k and RDIAS's are like $25k.

 

[mclina]

Ya wanna know something funny? Here in CT we can most certainly own MGs. But, there is one wrinkle. It can NOT be select fire, period. So, you CAN own an M4 or M16 as long as it has a switch that says 'Safe" and "Fire". Same goes for any other MG or SMG. Stupid, no???

Rome

That's like saying you can drive a car as long as it's a bicycle.

 

[drgrant]

No, but it is in a CMR which means the issuing authority will have a hard time denying you because you are not a "bona fide collector".

Unfortunately, "because I don't issue them" has been accepted as a valid reason for denial by the MA courts.

If someone has enough money to buy a pre-86 M16/RR/RDIAS none of this is really a problem, because its no more than a few grand more to work around these issues, worst case. There's always away around a bad chief, and even more so if you have money.

ETA: Lest anyone think that I believe this abuse by CLEOs is a good thing, I'm just positing the above as a practical way of dealing with the problem. In MA your choices are grousing about the shitty chief or just driving around him.

-Mike

 

[thormx538]

That's like saying you can drive a car as long as it's a bicycle.

I was gonna say like a car with only neutral and 4th gear, haha.

 

[7.62x39]

More like $25K these days.

And therein lies the rub. I've had my green card so long that I've already had to renew it, but I still don't own anything with a giggle switch.
Fortunately, I am good friends with an 07/SOT who has several, which is the real reason I got it in the first place. Some clubs require you to have a green card just to handle/shoot an MG

 

[warwickben]

And therein lies the rub. I've had my green card so long that I've already had to renew it, but I still don't own anything with a giggle switch.
Fortunately, I am good friends with an 07/SOT who has several, which is the real reason I got it in the first place. Some clubs require you to have a green card just to handle/shoot an MG

I believe after the kid died at a shoot at mass they changed it so you need one to handle them on this state. Or at least that's what lens posts .

 

[Len-2A Training]

I believe after the kid died at a shoot at mass they changed it so you need one to handle them on this state. Or at least that's what lens posts .

The AG came out with either an "opinion" or a "ruling" (nobody can tell me which or show it to me) that one must have a green card to legally touch one!

In either case, a DA parading such a piece of paper to a judge/jury in MA will likely win the day . . . and the penalty is up to life in prison. So weigh your risk carefully.

 

[knfmn]

To rub the burn in a bit more, just remember that in 1985 a full-auto M16 only cost a few hundred more than an AR-15 ($200 tax stamp + cost of auto parts). Without the hughes amendment, I imagine there would currently be several times as many full auto or burst fire guns in civilian hands, since inflation adjusted prices are actually down on, for example, the AR.

As long as we're dreaming, think about how awesome it would be if the $35 Anderson lowers came ready to rock and roll if you paid $40+tax stamp. Sadly, those days are gone and probably never coming back.

 

[namedpipes]

That's like saying you can drive a car as long as it's a bicycle.

It's a little more like saying you can drive your car as fast as you want, but the shift lever can only shift between Park , Neutral and First.



Damn you, Thormx...

I was gonna say like a car with only neutral and 4th gear, haha.

 

[mac1911]

no, it isn't.

while it helps satisfy the "bona fide collector" or whatever wording is in the law--it's not part of the law. you absolutely can be a collector of firearms without being a 03FFL.

I stand corrected, although for 30$ its the easiest way be deemed a collector.

Bona Fide Collectors of Firearms: A “bona fide collector of firearms”, for the purpose of issuance of a machine gun license, shall be defined as an individual who acquires firearms for such lawful purposes as historical significance, display, research, lecturing, demonstration, test firing, investment or other like purposes. For the purpose of issuance of a machine gun license the acquisitions of firearms for sporting use or for use as an offensive or defensive weapon shall not qualify an applicant as a bona fide collector of firearms. An individual licensed pursuant to 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 Sections 921-929 and 27 CFR part 178 shall be deemed a bona fide collector of firearms for the purpose of this regulation.

 

[thormx538]

As long as we're dreaming, think about how awesome it would be if the $35 Anderson lowers came ready to rock and roll if you paid $40+tax stamp. Sadly, those days are gone and probably never coming back.

There are actually court cases going on right now because the BATFE approved some eForm 1's for MG's accidentally, then tried to go and disapprove them.

Paraphrasing severely, the idea is that since a trust is not specifically a prohibited person by the GCA'68 or FOPA'86 amendments (because the ATF declared trusts "not persons" in order to make trustees get background checks when buying things via form 4's), and because making an MG on a form 1 does not involve a transfer or interstate commerce, trusts are allowed to manufacture MG's on a form 1.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/245057730/Hollis-v-Holder-Complaint (PG 8/9ish)

And the big ARFCOM thread. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/16...for_trusts_Last_one_out__get_the_lights_.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/16...atson_v__Holder___Hollis_sur_reply_p_73_.html

Stephen Stamboulieh is a good dude -- I encourage anyone interested in the case to read up on it and donate to the cause

 

[JMC Arms]

There are actually court cases going on right now because the BATFE approved some eForm 1's for MG's accidentally, then tried to go and disapprove them.

Paraphrasing severely, the idea is that since a trust is not specifically a prohibited person by the GCA'68 or FOPA'86 amendments (because the ATF declared trusts "not persons" in order to make trustees get background checks when buying things via form 4's), and because making an MG on a form 1 does not involve a transfer or interstate commerce, trusts are allowed to manufacture MG's on a form 1.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/245057730/Hollis-v-Holder-Complaint (PG 8/9ish)

And the big ARFCOM thread. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/16...for_trusts_Last_one_out__get_the_lights_.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/16...atson_v__Holder___Hollis_sur_reply_p_73_.html

Stephen Stamboulieh is a good dude -- I encourage anyone interested in the case to read up on it and donate to the cause

The case was dismissed and the Atty is appealing the almost immediate dismissal. If you read the ruling they whole thing is a poorly constructed mess, regardless of intentions.

Speak to to your chief about a MG permit before applying. You do not want a denial on paper. You can write a letter about collecting for investment, the security / safe you will store it in, your C&R license status etc to show your serious and "qualified".

 

[MGnoob]

The AG came out with either an "opinion" or a "ruling" (nobody can tell me which or show it to me) that one must have a green card to legally touch one!

In either case, a DA parading such a piece of paper to a judge/jury in MA will likely win the day . . . and the penalty is up to life in prison. So weigh your risk carefully.

I've been wondering about this..i haven't seen or read anything concrete on this but the clubs all seem to be following suit.
I've got a therietical question for you.
So if i let someone without a green card shoot my MG....wouldn't they be effected by the "opinion" and not me?
What would i be violating?unless we're moving towards the letting Someone use a firearm at a range is a transfer.
You do live fire training to get your ltc before you have an ltc.......you don't need a fid/ltc to fire a gun.

 

[Len-2A Training]

AG position is that letting someone TOUCH your mg IS a "transfer". I don't agree but IANAL.

 

[MGnoob]

I'll have to find the AG and throw my sear at them then yell "You touched it last!"
We'd both be so screwed.

 

[namedpipes]

AG position is that letting someone TOUCH your mg IS a "transfer". I don't agree but IANAL.

If touching a machine gun is a transfer then so is touching a rifle, shotgun or pistol.

When they start requiring FA-10s to shoot somebody else's gun at the range, I'll worry about caressing a pretty M16 or MP30 at a shoot...

 

[MGnoob]

If touching a machine gun is a transfer then so is touching a rifle, shotgun or pistol.

When they start requiring FA-10s to shoot somebody else's gun at the range, I'll worry about caressing a pretty M16 or MP30 at a shoot...

So you want to come by and touch it?

Your spot on though..


Here's a photo of mine..
http://users.zoominternet.net/~m60/rdiasstsc.jpg
Now show me yours.

 

[drgrant]

I believe after the kid died at a shoot at mass they changed it so you need one to handle them on this state. Or at least that's what lens posts .

They didn't change anything, a bunch of retard REMF types in the MA state government made this opinion, tried to prosecute someone with it (and failed) but it still stuck around like shit on someone's shoe sole.

-Mike

 

[Minuteman Armament]

It's cheaper to get an FFL. I filled out my MG app and 3 weeks later had my license. No interviews or anything (your results may vary).

You save much more getting your FFL.

 

[gerrycaruso]

I'm glad to see my M16 has gone up in value so much. When I bought it, I spent a few nights tossing and turning fretting over spending so much money on a gun. I guess 10 grand is cheap now.

 

[Len-2A Training]

If touching a machine gun is a transfer then so is touching a rifle, shotgun or pistol.

When they start requiring FA-10s to shoot somebody else's gun at the range, I'll worry about caressing a pretty M16 or MP30 at a shoot...

The problem is that MGL allows an unlicensed person to handle/shoot a pistol/revolver, rifle and/or shotgun when under direct supervision of a licensed person. However, the AG points out that since MGL specifies those particular category of gun but does NOT mention machine gun in that section of law, they interpreted touching a mg as a prohibited act.

 

[seanc]

As somebody that has gone through all of this.. My advice would be to make friends with a person that has one, or go up to Manchester and rent as desired..

 

[SIG-owner]

Thanks for all the info! Guess I'll start with the paperwork and then make friends!!

 

[MGnoob]

The problem is that MGL allows an unlicensed person to handle/shoot a pistol/revolver, rifle and/or shotgun when under direct supervision of a licensed person. However, the AG points out that since MGL specifies those particular category of gun but does NOT mention machine gun in that section of law, they interpreted touching a mg as a prohibited act.

Thankyou, atleast now i understand what their position is