LTC-B, Semi-auto pistols

jdubois said:
Here's where my rub has always been. Where is this determination, for guns not on the list, stated? For non-listed guns, the large capacity roster says, "weapons equipped with a large capacity feeding device" It does not say, "weapons originally equipped with a large capacity feed device." The very existence of the list that determines which guns are considered large capacity implies that guns not on the list (and not subject to their specific listed additions) are NOT large capacity.

Again, I follow what the lawyers say in practice, but I still would like somebody to show me the evidence.
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I'll agree with you. That's why I tend to lean on the side of caution.
 
... And one of the reasons that even Chief Glidden strongly recommends that Chiefs do not issue Class B due to all the problems that come with it.

LTC A unless you are under 21.

*of course, if the law proposed by GOAL were to pass, it would be ONE license for all with abilities based on age alone*
 
vellnueve is correct here. A literal reading of the applicable MGL would seem to require an LTC-A for any semi-automatic with a detachable magazine. However, M.G.L. c.140, §131¾ gives EOPS the authority to determine which firearms are and which are not large capacity, thus requiring and LTC-A. All firearms on the list that EOPS periodically publishes are considered to be per se large capacity firearms. In addition, any firearm not on the list but accompanied by a large capacity magazine that fits it is also considered to be large capacity.

While you might not need an LTC-A (despite the faulty legal opinion of S&W), there's no reason why you should ever apply for an LTC-B. If your licensing authority won't issue an LTC-A, then deal with that when it happens. There's nothing to be gained by asking them to put gratuitous limitations on what guns you can and can't legally possess. Most licensing authorities will issue an LTC-A, with or without restrictions prohibiting concealed carry, but I don't know of any off-hand that currently insist on issuing LTC-B. Go for it.

Ken
 
Apply for the A its the same amount of effort and $$. If you get it, then great! If you get a "B" well, I guess you are happy with that anyway.
 
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The LTC-B is a joke (no offense to those who have one). Even a restricted A is light-years better.

To those who critiqued my opinion, I agree with most of everything you said. That's why I added "in practice" as a disclaimer. The laws are too vague to make any more definitive a statement than "firearms on the roster plus any firearm fitted with, or that you currently own a large capacity feeding device for" are large capacity, but we know that it seems to be more expansive than just those definitions.

In practice, I'd say (and I'm not a lawyer) that 1911s (plus other single-stack small-caps), any double stack that doesn't hold more than ten rounds standard in free states (M&P45, M&P40, some Baby Glocks), etc would be reasonably safe for an LTC-B holder to acquire. OTOH, I'm guessing that dealers will set the ultimate standard as none of them want shit from the .gov when you get picked up for your illegal handgun.
 
Right or wrong the LTC B will keep you from buying and owning the majority of guns in a gun shop and on top of that it's f---ing ridiculous and insulting for the issuing officer to even have an LTC B in the friggin state.

It's embarrassing to have a gun shop tell you they can't sell you the gun you want because you have a LTCB. Especially while people 2 miles away from where you live are buying what you can't.

Apply for the A as you have nothing to lose. If your gonna be denied they will do it whether it's a request for A or B anyway.
 
Is there anybody here with a high IQ who would be willing to critique my letter to the the chief? Some lawyers on here won't help me because they don't like me.
 
KMaurer said:
vellnueve is correct here. A literal reading of the applicable MGL would seem to require an LTC-A for any semi-automatic with a detachable magazine. However, M.G.L. c.140, §131¾ gives EOPS the authority to determine which firearms are and which are not large capacity, thus requiring and LTC-A. All firearms on the list that EOPS periodically publishes are considered to be per se large capacity firearms. In addition, any firearm not on the list but accompanied by a large capacity magazine that fits it is also considered to be large capacity.

While you might not need an LTC-A (despite the faulty legal opinion of S&W), there's no reason why you should ever apply for an LTC-B. If your licensing authority won't issue an LTC-A, then deal with that when it happens. There's nothing to be gained by asking them to put gratuitous limitations on what guns you can and can't legally possess. Most licensing authorities will issue an LTC-A, with or without restrictions prohibiting concealed carry, but I don't know of any off-hand that currently insist on issuing LTC-B. Go for it.

Ken
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Canton is the classic B-Rammer town. they will shove a class B down your throat and then *maybe* upgrade you if youve been good. That town needs to be turned it into a glass parking lot.
 
Definitely go for the class A. Per usual with MA gun laws, there's too much grey area and you'll get the shaft more often than not.

I'll bite my tongue on the comment about lawyers...but I'll throw in a Scrivner eye roll for good measure: [rolleyes]
 
I was reading the high capacity weapons roster. So apparently with an LTC B you can own an Uzi Carbine but not a single stack 1911?

[Thinking]
 
You CAN buy a single stack 1911. This subject has been beaten to death over and over again. It has been explained in this very thread more than once.

Why do you think there are no 1911's on the high capacity firearms roster other than double stack para's? Because they are not considered high capacity! I just don't understand why anyone, especially dealers have such a hard time understanding this.
 
Since some people seem to still have trouble, this is verbatim from the EOPS large capacity list (emphasis added):
This roster has been compiled in accordance with M.G.L. c.140, §131¾. It contains weapons determined to have been originally manufactured for the civilian retail consumer market as large capacity weapons as defined by § 121 of chapter 140. Weapons not listed on this roster may also be large capacity weapons if they are semi-automatic, and are capable of accepting or readily modifiable to accept a large capacity feeding device.

For the purposes of M.G.L. c.140, §121, “Capable of Accepting” shall mean any firearm, rifle or shotgun in which a large capacity feeding device is capable of being used without alteration of the weapon; provided, however, that said feeding device is fully or partially inserted into the weapon or attached thereto, or is under the direct control of a person who also has direct control of a weapon capable of accepting said feeding device.

For the purposes of M.G.L. c.140, §121, “Readily Modifiable to Accept” shall mean any firearm, rifle or shotgun immediately capable of being altered so as to accept a large capacity feeding device; provided, however that said feeding device is fully or partially inserted into the weapon or attached thereto, or is under the direct control of a person who also has direct control of a weapon capable of accepting said feeding device.

NOTE: Unless otherwise exempted by §121, the term "large capacity weapon" shall apply to all semiautomatic weapons equipped with a large capacity feeding device, including any such weapons not listed on this roster.
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There are a lot of firearms for which large capacity feeding devices are available, and almost all can easily be modified to accept some some large capacity feeding device. However, as plainly stated above, they aren't considered to be large capacity, and thus don't require an LTC-A in the case of handguns or an LTC in the case of rifles) unless you've actually got the appropriate large capacity feeding device under your direct control at the same time that you have the gun.

Ken
 
KMaurer said:
There are a lot of firearms for which large capacity feeding devices are available, and almost all can easily be modified to accept some some large capacity feeding device. However, as plainly stated above, they aren't considered to be large capacity, and thus don't require an LTC-A in the case of handguns or an LTC in the case of rifles) unless you've actually got the appropriate large capacity feeding device under your direct control at the same time that you have the gun.
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I agree with you completely, Ken. This is exactly how I read the law too. However, Scrivener at least has said that any guns that originally came from the manufacturer with a large capacity feeding device are also to be considered large capacity, even if they don't currently have a large capacity feeding device with them and are not on the roster. I still don't know where he was getting that from, but there it is.
 
Mossy Oak said:
There appears to be a shortage of lawyers on this forum who are willing to assist me.
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AND

Mossy Oak said:
I've read this thread plenty and it's full of conflicting statements.
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AND

Mossy Oak said:
Is there anybody here with a high IQ who would be willing to critique my letter to the the chief? Some lawyers on here won't help me because they don't like me.
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First... no one here is obligated to help you. This is a group of volunteers and friends that are just trying to help you and others out. Your comments and attitude certainly won't encourage anyone to provide a helping hand.

Second... your questions are important, potentially to the point of keeping you out of jail. Yes, there are conflicting views, and there is good reason for that. The law is about as clear as mud. Several very knowledgeable people here have different interpretations of the laws.

Personally I would not put myself at risk of legal troubles based upon information I read online. I've found many websites that tell me I don't have to pay income taxes to the IRS. A judge is not going to care that you found information on the internet posted by some guy you don't know that supports your arguments. A judge will likely question your IQ for doing so.

And don't hang your hat on any single post that happens to agree with what you are planning to do anyway. That is a surefire way to get yourself in a heap of hot water.

Hire a competent, experienced firearms attorney to get a professional opinion. Should you end up in a legal hassle a judge will likely give you the benefit of the doubt if you followed competent legal advice. It shows intent on your part to follow the law. An ounce of preventation...

You get what you pay for in life.

Good luck in your decisions.

Rich
 
You can legally purchase and possess a 1911 with only an LTC-B, since it's not on the EOPS list, as log as you don't simultaneously have under your direct control a large capacity feeding device for it. I don't think you'll find anyone who has asserted otherwise. As to Scrivener's statement, while I (not being a masochist) don't have all of this posts in front of me, I believe he as referring to the way in which EOPS creates their list. If a manufacturer sells a semiautomatic with a large capacity magazine (either new gun or change in product packaging), then EOPS will consider that gun to be large capacity, even in the absence of the large capacity magazine, and include it on the next list. That's the way I heard Rin Glidden explain it, and it's totally consistent with EOPS explanations of their list. Since no 1911 has ever been sold by the original manufacturer with a large capacity magazine, it unambiguously is not a large capacity firearm without adding a large capacity magazine.

Ken
 
Mossy Oak said:
No what? No 1911? No Uzi?

I've read this thread plenty and it's full of conflicting statements.
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No to this statement -- it is wrong:

I was reading the high capacity weapons roster. So apparently with an LTC B you can own an Uzi Carbine but not a single stack 1911?
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With an LTC-B you can own both a single-stack 1911 and an Uzi.

Read the law. Read this thread, again, particularly this post: http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=699385&postcount=50
 
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OK, then that's Keith's opinion, one not exactly shared by either EOPS or the state's Gun Control Advisory Board. Of course if you were to purchase one with the large cap magazine, then it would be large capacity, due to the presence of the magazine. Furthermore, being sold that way would be cause for EOPS to add it to their list the next time they publish one. Since the situation has never come up in case law, it's simply a matter of conflicting opinions. None of us know how it would work out in court, but nobody in any official capacity seems to be supporting Keith's position, and, while he'll never admit it, he's been wrong before. In any case, none of this apples to any of the weapons being mentioned here, since they're all either already on the list or have never been sold with large cap magazines.

Edit: Actually, having now read that thread, Keith never explicitly says that it's large capacity without the magazine. What he does suggest is that if EOPS were aware of it's having shipped with LC magazines in other states, then they would add it to the list. He, like all good lawyers, is adept at leading one to believe he said something that he never actually did.

Ken
 
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richc said:
First... no one here is obligated to help you. This is a group of volunteers and friends that are just trying to help you and others out. Your comments and attitude certainly won't encourage anyone to provide a helping hand.
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Sorry. Merry Christmas!
 
Merry Christmas to you as well, and to all our friends on this wonderful forum.

This group of people is not just about a shared love of a sport. It is about a camaraderie, a spirit of caring, and and incredible depth of wisdom.

Give people a chance and the respect that they are due and you'd be amazed at the response.

My best wishes to you, your family and to this incredible group of friends.

Cheers,

Rich
 

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