Local shopping woes, reloading supplies

[Nicole]

Disclaimer - I don't speak for Adam, I speak for me. I'm sure he's working his way through the thread to this right now.

I have sent everyone who asks me about local dealers your way....I have made it no secret to you that I am a shop whore.

I LOVE shop whores! You bring us intelligence and fun new things to look at! Since starting to work at Acme it's been nice to see how many dealers will happily send customers back and forth if they can't help the person but they know the dealer in the next town over can probably help them with a particular need.

Adam your not upset because I dont belong to one of the 2 parties are you? Adam can I still come buy or am I banned? Yeah know my daughter likes super dog and will be needing a pink gun in the not to distant future!

Pssst...I'm an independent and he lets me hang around.

Super Dog loves his fan club & we hope you get to help turn Acme into the official pink gun shop of Massachusetts. Two custom pink rifles down, who wants to be lucky number 3?

 

[Acme.Armament]

I dont consider most of the places I have seen to be mega FFL dealers out of state or online.

This is what I am after answers. Adam I called you, asked for a product you delivered I paid. no complaints. I did not even ask how much until the order was in. I thanked you then I will thank you now. I have sent everyone who asks me about local dealers your way....I have made it no secret to you that I am a shop whore. My spending has been very little other than a few C&R items in the most recent past. Just dont have the cash. When I do have a bit of spending $$ I check out what you have. OK so reloading suppies is not your thing, I get it. No problem.
Still doing my best to keep it local----------

Mega is a comparison between small shops and the Bass Pro Shop/Dick's/Cabela's. I know you try and keep it local, I'm not singling you out but rather making a statement that many others don't and will shop out of state or online to save $1.

Maybe things have changed but when I used to purchase my powder and primers from EGE in hanover he got it through JSC and they delivered to his door. not once did he charge hazmat fee------"thats only for UPS/fedex not direct supplier to dealer", true or not I dont know.

Adam do you remember when we discussed camfour getting bulk surplus ammo, did they ever get it. If they did you never told me. Do you not deal with them anymore.

Things have changed and many folks don't/haven't realized this yet. Camfour never got that in. They had it listed on their website, I placed a backorder but the item has disapeared.

Adam thanks for getting into it. We need involvement from the dealers to understand. Im sure the volume is there, Im a small time reloader and haveing a hard time getting 1k bullets locally, cant emagine what you guys loading several k have to do or where you have to drive to.

Adam dont take it personally as I made only a mention of you in a response to a question. Did not give a bad note.

On a lite note: People like me, what there are people like me out there, SHIT god I thought I was so special. Adam your not upset because I dont belong to one of the 2 parties are you? Adam can I still come buy or am I banned? Yeah know my daughter likes super dog and will be needing a pink gun in the not to distant future!

My large post last night may seem like that, but the response from me is trying to educate the masses. You just happened to be the one posting about this.. I'd like nothing more than to have prices go back to what they were 10 years ago so we may All afford to shoot more.

John your good with Acme, no problem here. Party? Where?
You and your family are always welcome at Acme. SuperDog will be available also. The phrase, "SuperDog, come back!" is the best . Acme will help set up a pink rifle for her.

 

[mac1911]

just to be clear: ACME has been great in customer service, all though it was not a lot the last 90% of the firearms related $$ I spent in the past 3 years has been with adam.
mind you if my pockets where deeper, I would spend more.
Bottom line is I love to shoot, the more I can get for my dollar the more bang time I get for that dollar.....reason I shoot a lot of wolf ammo, but thats another Thread all together.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I applaud any dealer that tries to do business in this horrible state, but you can't seriously expect people to not want the lowest price (or at least something approaching that price) especially with all the increases in the past few years.

It's on thing to go to a shop, use their time, paw over their inventory and buy the identical gun elsewhere since you can get it cheaper. Something doesn't seem right about that, especially if you are trying to build a mutually beneficial long term relationship with a dealer.

On the other hand, buying something locally you can get cheaper elsewhere - when you already know what you want and don't need any professional dealer services - is no different that simply mailing the dealer a donation because you want to keep him in business.

The closest to us, Camfour, has a minimum $2500 order.

The last I checked, Beikirch's in East Rocester, NY was $1000 minimum for delivery with their own fleet of trucks. They also do smaller orders, but with the usual shipping/hazmat. They are great people to deal with, but are not a generally good source for anything in short supply. They deal only with FFL holders (except for in-person sales with a - yikes - 8% NY sales tax for retail customers). Their trucks to make stops in MA so they are "logically" as close as Camfour (ie, one phone call away). Established shops work on open account - you call, they deliver, and you get a bill.

When I explained I could get it there cheaper their response was go ahead and get it there then.

A tough call for a shop. There are several price points: The dealer's cost; the price that makes an incremental profit on that sale but does not contribute enough to overhead to survive if you sell all guns at that price; and the fully burdened price that "makes sense". Things get tricky when a dealer has a customer who can get it elsewhere and is offering enough for the dealer to make an incremental profit on a gun that will be immediately replaced with one from the distributor, but is at a price level where the dealer can't sell all guns at that price. If the dealer drops the price, he makes more money ... but risks having word get out that he negotiates. Tough call.

I was with a friend who wanted to buy a S&W at the shop that used to be on Rt. 20 in Northboro 15+ years ago. He told the dealer what he could get if for elsewhere and offered him that amount. The dealer declined (even though he would have made a profit and had the gun replaced in a couple of days), probably because he did not want a reputation for negotiating. The dealer complained about unethical retailers "whoring" the industry selling at such low margins it hurts the retail trade. I asked him if he buys his stock from the distributor who offers the lowest price or only purchases from ones that have healthy enough margins to be "good for the industry" .

 

[pdm]

This thread makes me believe there is a business opportunity in New England for a local producer of primers, powder and bullets.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

This thread makes me believe there is a business opportunity in New England for a local producer of primers, powder and bullets.

Do you have any concept of the scale of investment needed to manufacture any of the above (except perhaps plain lead cast bullets) on a cost effective basis, or of the difficulty in competing with low labor/utility cost environments like Mississippi?

 

[scooter]

This thread makes me believe there is a business opportunity in New England for a local producer of primers, powder and bullets.

You simply cannot say customer service not there that day because the shop didn't knock $20 off. Any shop has every right to stick to their asking price. Maybe they paid more for shipping due to less quantity, maybe they purchased from another distributor and paid more. But saying that customer service was not there because the shop refused to knock off $20 is not what customer service is all about.

By the sounds of it, in your own words, you frequent said store and not new there. Obviously up until this point they have provided you an exceptional level of customer service, maybe it warranted spending the extra $40 there, maybe it didn't?

Finally, I'm guessing your talking about NSF and FS. I'll shop NSF over FS any day. Dealing with grumpy sales folk, crowded stores, even if on occasion, is will be getting them delivered to someone with a forklift and a place to store them.

I wasn't trying to get something for nothing. My comment was purely based on their attitude and lack of explination as opposed to the finger. Sorry if offended anyone sensitive feelings. Why mention the gun shops anyway?

 

[Squished]

Why mention the gun shops anyway?

Because it's come up on here before, about 2348093242093 times now.(Ok, I exaggerated, slightly.)

 

[pdm]

Do you have any concept of the scale of investment needed to manufacture any of the above (except perhaps plain lead cast bullets) on a cost effective basis, or of the difficulty in competing with low labor/utility cost environments like Mississippi?

Well obviously the distance from here to there ain't making it so cost effective, now is it?

 

[sig2009]

So I guess in the case of Acme Armament I guess you would happily spend an extra couple thousand dollars when you go to buy a new locally car rather than save that couple thousand dollars buying from someone in the next town. Ya right! Who are you kidding!

 

[scooter]

Fair enough

 

[scooter]

Because it's come up on here before, about 2348093242093 times now.(Ok, I exaggerated, slightly.)

fair enough

 

[Acme.Armament]

So I guess in the case of Acme Armament I guess you would happily spend an extra couple thousand dollars when you go to buy a new locally car rather than save that couple thousand dollars buying from someone in the next town. Ya right! Who are you kidding!

I take it you haven't been to Acme? If you had, you would know we don't have any car dealers or much of any retail stores here so we have to go out of town. Of the two truck brands I like, I do buy a close as possible. If they don't have what I am looking for I ask if they can get it for the same price or close to what is being advertised. Yet I am not going to go out of the way, see: county & state here, to save just a few dollars. Yes, I have actually had customers do that for reloading supplies. I don't blame them, but have they added to the price of the purchase, the time and money to go farther to get the same item to see if they are actually saving money?

 

[Tim94gt]

I have no problem paying a little extra for service and convenience.

Personally, I like to do business with a human being than a computer. I like leaving with a product and not having to wait for it to come in the mail. I enjoy talking and shooting the shit with the people at the shop(no pun intended).

I don't have very deep pockets, but I will support good hard working businessmen when I have a choice.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Well obviously the distance from here to there ain't making it so cost effective, now is it?

I doubt that the costs saving in shipping to service local customers would make up for the loss of economy of scale building a plant to service "retail" direct ship customers, the extra costs of MA labor and regulation; etc. Car manufacturers don't have "local plants" in the northeast to service customers in this are with lower transportation costs (GM closed the plant in Framingham a few years ago).

What could possibly work is a place like Camfour oriented towards servicing the individual. There are already several such firms in the midwest (and I will not mention names, in case any ship to MA). An issue the big places face is "who to service" - end user or dealer. Camfour wouldn't exactly win any popularity contests with dealers if they started selling to individuals at the same prices.

 

[mac1911]

there is also a distributor in PA that comes out this way......the name escapes me right now. CS supply or something on that line.

 

[Len-2A Training]

What could possibly work is a place like Camfour oriented towards servicing the individual. There are already several such firms in the midwest (and I will not mention names, in case any ship to MA). An issue the big places face is "who to service" - end user or dealer. Camfour wouldn't exactly win any popularity contests with dealers if they started selling to individuals at the same prices.

This didn't work out real well the last time it was tried.

KTP owned and ran Summit Distributing upstairs and around back as one of the largest distributors for years. KTP retail was no bargain, they refused to accept C&R FFLs . . . all this to protect their wholesale customers. Summit no longer exists (many years now).

Ivanhoe in Watertown Square was a retail operation w/o discount pricing. They were owned by Interstate Arms (large distributor still in existence today but serving mostly LE) which was located near You-Do-It Electronics in Needham back many years ago. Again retail store prices were high to protect the many wholesale customers they had. They ended up closing up their retail operation, moving to a LE-only warehouse operation up in Nutting Lake. I think it's now strictly mail/Internet order.

There are too many conflicts running a wholesale operation and then undercutting your dealers (customers) by selling retail too.

 

[Mikie]

Most of my bullet purchases for reloading are coming from out of state, some online, some by phone. There are 2 sellers who ship free if you order above a certain amount which is not too painful. I get Moly coated 45s for about $80/1K. 1K JHPs 45s cost about $138 from another seller. Price of primers have been the painful. I was fortunate to purchase 20K primers from someone who was getting out of reloading and I'm still living off that supply. Powder is OK as long as you can order 2 or more 8lbs jugs.

 

[pdm]

I doubt that the costs saving in shipping to service local customers would make up for the loss of economy of scale building a plant to service "retail" direct ship customers, the extra costs of MA labor and regulation; etc. Car manufacturers don't have "local plants" in the northeast to service customers in this are with lower transportation costs (GM closed the plant in Framingham a few years ago).

See, that's why I said New England, and not Massachusetts. I wouldn't start a business in MA unless I had a lot of cash to burn for poking the Establishment in the eye while doing it.

 

[drgrant]

Well obviously the distance from here to there ain't making it so cost effective, now is it?

It has nothing to do with distance. It has everything to do with the fact that it's not profitable for gun shops to carry most of the stuff, because most serious reloaders are going to be buying close to the same distribution level the gun shops are buying at anyways. If I'm a gun shop owner I'm not going to put 10,000 pounds of bullets in my shop to make $5 on a $300 case of bullets, it just doesn't make economic sense.

Ironically enough the reason why mac1911 is running into this problem he posited, is because he's not looking hard enough. Sometimes for dealers you have to ASK, too, they don't keep reloading stuff out on the floor. Many of them have no problem ordering it for customers, especially if you are willing to do a bulk order. (this drives the hazmat fees for powder and primers down).

-Mike

 

[Rob Boudrie]

This didn't work out real well the last time it was tried.

It wasn't tried - at least not heew in New England.

The scenarios you described are ones in which a distributor tired to play both side of the coin with a "dealer at dealer cost" outlet and a "consumer at typical retail costs or higher" outlet. There are several reloading component firms (none in MA) that specialize in dealer prices to the masses. They'll accept dealer orders, but they don't position themselves as a distributor and since dealers aren't their main target market, don't fall into the "competing with your customers" trap.

The real issues facing the MA market are:

- Sales tax
- Hazmat
- AG harassment limiting suppliers
- Consumer access to dealer level pricing

 

[sig2009]

It wasn't tried - at least not heew in New England.

The scenarios you described are ones in which a distributor tired to play both side of the coin with a "dealer at dealer cost" outlet and a "consumer at typical retail costs or higher" outlet. There are several reloading component firms (none in MA) that specialize in dealer prices to the masses. They'll accept dealer orders, but they don't position themselves as a distributor and since dealers aren't their main target market, don't fall into the "competing with your customers" trap.

The real issues facing the MA market are:

- Sales tax
- Hazmat
- AG harassment limiting suppliers
- Consumer access to dealer level pricing

Screw the AG. Either there is a law on the books that says it is legal or not legal to ship reloading componets to MA.

 

[Squished]

Screw the AG. Either there is a law on the books that says it is legal or not legal to ship reloading componets to MA.

You go man!

 

[Nicole]

So I guess in the case of Acme Armament I guess you would happily spend an extra couple thousand dollars when you go to buy a new locally car rather than save that couple thousand dollars buying from someone in the next town. Ya right! Who are you kidding!

Well I've never bought a car from a dealer so you don't get to call me a hypocrite or a liar on that score.

What Adam and I have both been saying on that issue is that there's a cost attached to the lower price. Maybe it's really important to you to save $3K right NOW. There's nothing wrong with that. But maybe the dealer in your town has a better service department, will cut you a deal on the next new car you buy because he appreciates the customer loyalty, has a free tire program, or provides free loaner cars while yours is in for work. Maybe, because the local guy is local, he knows us now and he comes to Acme to buy a gun or sends his customers our way if the subject comes up. Perhaps that's worth saving a couple grand right now because the long-term payoff is better? It's a choice. Everyone is free to pick the one they want. But just because you are focused on the immediate savings and can't see added value in a transaction, don't assume everyone else works that way.

Screw the AG. Either there is a law on the books that says it is legal or not legal to ship reloading componets to MA.

Are you serious?? The companies that refuse to ship stuff to MA have received letters from the AGs office stating that they have violated the MA law and that unless they sign an agreement to stop shipping here, they will be hauled in to court and each delivery will be a separate count against them. Do you know what it will take for them to mount a legal defense, even if they win? Why on earth would they risk their business, their income, and their families' security in order to sell to a small market like MA?

Oh wait, let me phrase that so that you'll definitely understand.

"So I guess in the case of [STRIKE]Acme Armament[/STRIKE] component companies I guess [STRIKE]you[/STRIKE] they would happily [STRIKE]spend an extra couple thousand dollars when you go to buy a new locally car[/STRIKE]risk bankruptcy to sell to people they've never met rather than [STRIKE]save that couple thousand dollars buying from someone in the next town[/STRIKE] have a profitable business and no legal troubles by ignoring a small part of their total possible market. Ya right! Who are you kidding!"

 

[FalArAk]

So,using Acme Armament logic one could conclude that AA would not seek out the best price from distributors due to keeping it local or loyalty?

I try t get to get the most for my dollar and when I am spending thousands of dollars it makes absolutely no sense to me to waste money.

Then again,I know what I want and how much it goes for.I don't need to be coddled and talked into some thing I never knew I wanted.Shops in ma rely upon uninformed consumers who are prone to make impulse purchases.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Are you serious?? The companies that refuse to ship stuff to MA have received letters from the AGs office stating that they have violated the MA law and that unless they sign an agreement to stop shipping here, they will be hauled in to court and each delivery will be a separate count against them. Do you know what it will take for them to mount a legal defense, even if they win?

It's easy to be tough with someone else's money.

One dealer I know was asked to do a legal transaction of the type the AG might not like. The dealer offered to do it if the buyer would sign an indemnification contract agreeing to pay, without limit, all legal fees in defending the assessment of any penalty against the shop. Guess what? The buyer lost interest when asked to accept the risk he so willing asked the dealer to accept.

I wonder if the person who posted "so what -it's legal or it isn't" would be willing to enter into a similar indemnification contract with an out of state seller? My guess is that the answer is no, and the OP is willing to risk the seller's money, but not his own, in the consumation of an out of state to MA ammo/component sale.

 

[drgrant]

Are you serious?? The companies that refuse to ship stuff to MA have received letters from the AGs office stating that they have violated the MA law and that unless they sign an agreement to stop shipping here, they will be hauled in to court and each delivery will be a separate count against them. Do you know what it will take for them to mount a legal defense, even if they win? Why on earth would they risk their business, their income, and their families' security in order to sell to a small market like MA?

To be fair, it's worth noting that only a handful of vendors that ship to MA have gotten and accepted these "consent decree enemas" from the AG's office. The problem is word gets around and the rest of them have all run scared. There is sort of a "moral panic swine flue scare" among non MA dealers shipping ammo into MA, even if the
practice is arguably legal.

-Mike

 

[swampy]

No you shouldn't. Maybe you should shop around in state and spend your money helping support a dealer that is trying to do business in competition with the dealers with deep pockets.





You may not, but many others do. I try to have some basics such as primers and a few powders that are more frequently asked for.

The problem is that most of us that have reloaded for years have already made the rounds to the shops. I can drive 10 miles south to take a chance on finding 1 or 2 thousand primers but I know that shop won't have bullets or the powder that I want. I can drive a few miles from that shop and take a chance on finding a bag of a hundred or so bullets and maybe a pound or 2 of powder. Then I can drive 20 miles north and maybe find another hundred or so bullets. Probably not the same weight or material as the first buy though. Point is, the 150 miles I drive and the entire day off I waste doing this makes paying a $25 hazmat fee a no brainer. It buys me many days of reloading and shooting and saves at least as much in gas and mileage.

Village Gun shop that was in Northboro had a decent supply of cast bullets and plenty of 1 pound cans of powder. There were a few 5 pound cans of shotgun powder, wads, shot etc. The cast bullet prices were good. There was always a full rack of 100 bullet boxes for rifles but never any bulk rifle bullets. When the owner decided to stop selling retail he offered me a good deal on his supply of cast bullets. My jeep was standing on it's back wheels on that ride home.

At one time Kittery was the destination on Labor Day weekend and I always used that opportunity to get powder and sometimes primers. I bought several 12 pound cans of 700x one year and a couple single pound cans of assorted rifle powders. Now KTP limits powder to 2 pounds and primers to 200. If you ask for anything more they insult you. I don't know if I'll ever go back there.

I'm wondering if shop owners have any clue that some of us want to load and shoot 10-20k rounds a year. The lack of bulk supplies probably has them thinking reloaders are hyper accuracy fanatics sweating over making those 5 to 10 perfect rounds a month. After all, those AR-15 guys are shooting surplus stuff found buried at old army ranges and the AK/sks crowd shoot that imported steel cased crap.

 

[Nicole]

So,using Acme Armament logic one could conclude that AA would not seek out the best price from distributors due to keeping it local or loyalty?

I try t get to get the most for my dollar and when I am spending thousands of dollars it makes absolutely no sense to me to waste money.

Then again,I know what I want and how much it goes for.I don't need to be coddled and talked into some thing I never knew I wanted.Shops in ma rely upon uninformed consumers who are prone to make impulse purchases.

Caveat - This is a joint Nicole-Acme Armament post.

Once again, it depends one what else figures into the decision. If one hypothetical distributor has more/hard to find products available or has better customer service, then paying a bit more up front is worth it - it saves us time, allows us to stock the store better, or saves us time and money if a shipment gets messed up or a product is defective upon arrival. In the long-run it is more profitable.

In reality, we deal primarily with 5 distributors. When they are carrying the same product, their prices rarely vary significantly. But each distributor has carved out something of a niche. Some of them don't carry certain things, so you have to go to the next guy on your list to try and order it. Of the 5, the bulk of our business goes through 3 and 2 of those are locally owned. The majority of the shops in the area also go through those locally-owned distributors.

Again, we aren't talking about wasting money, we're talking about the value of everything attached to the sale outside of the price tag. Some people value such things, some don't. Sometimes it depends on the nature of the item you are purchasing or your situation at the moment. All valid. For the record, Acme isn't out to rape its customers. See this thread.

If you do have thousands burning a hole in your pocket, we have a lovely .50 BMG Barrett bolt action in the shop with your name on it. I assure you that won't be money wasted. Dealers get a VERY small profit margin on high-end rifles so come buy the Barrett. You even get the scope for free. You'll love shooting it and can do a happy dance when you think about how little the shop made off of you.

And most retail business thrive on impulse buyers. Go to the mall next Friday. There won't be a gun store in sight, but you'll see a ton of the behavior you describe. At Acme, we personally know many of our customers and rely on repeat business. If we screw people over or dupe them into buying things, they won't be back. And we want them back, in addition to the fact that we like to sleep with an easy conscience. However, we are not above offering homemade baked goods to improve customer relations.

 

[Acme.Armament]

The problem is that most of us that have reloaded for years have already made the rounds to the shops. I can drive 10 miles south to take a chance on finding 1 or 2 thousand primers but I know that shop won't have bullets or the powder that I want. I can drive a few miles from that shop and take a chance on finding a bag of a hundred or so bullets and maybe a pound or 2 of powder. Then I can drive 20 miles north and maybe find another hundred or so bullets. Probably not the same weight or material as the first buy though. Point is, the 150 miles I drive and the entire day off I waste doing this makes paying a $25 hazmat fee a no brainer. It buys me many days of reloading and shooting and saves at least as much in gas and mileage.

Village Gun shop that was in Northboro had a decent supply of cast bullets and plenty of 1 pound cans of powder. There were a few 5 pound cans of shotgun powder, wads, shot etc. The cast bullet prices were good. There was always a full rack of 100 bullet boxes for rifles but never any bulk rifle bullets. When the owner decided to stop selling retail he offered me a good deal on his supply of cast bullets. My jeep was standing on it's back wheels on that ride home.

At one time Kittery was the destination on Labor Day weekend and I always used that opportunity to get powder and sometimes primers. I bought several 12 pound cans of 700x one year and a couple single pound cans of assorted rifle powders. Now KTP limits powder to 2 pounds and primers to 200. If you ask for anything more they insult you. I don't know if I'll ever go back there.

I'm wondering if shop owners have any clue that some of us want to load and shoot 10-20k rounds a year. The lack of bulk supplies probably has them thinking reloaders are hyper accuracy fanatics sweating over making those 5 to 10 perfect rounds a month. After all, those AR-15 guys are shooting surplus stuff found buried at old army ranges and the AK/sks crowd shoot that imported steel cased crap.

Bingo. You had a dealer that had what you needed and you didn't feel the need to try and save a few bucks by going elsewhere. Any chance that since the dealer knew you were a solid customer that he tried to keep your preferred products in stock? I'm sorry you haven't found a resource to replace him since he's gone out of business.

If you are willing to drive to Plympton, PM me and we could work up a quote on what you are looking for. Acme is happy to place individual orders for customers.