Local shopping woes, reloading supplies

[mac1911]

I try luck hell to purchase locally....Is there a problem or reason why mass dealers reloading supplies prices are high than our bourder states?

I took a ride with the wife, had lunch picked up some reloading supplies.

Even with the gas and lunch I still saved money over buying locally. I would also have to go to several shops to get what I wanted here in mass.

Is it a storage issue, little or no profit ???

 

[willbdavis]

Imagine you were trying to run a gun store in MA. Imagine all the crap our Commonwealth puts you through, not to mention the taxes. Each form you fill out takes time and thus costs you money. Imagine the rent, especially as you get closer to Boston.

I don't think most people running gun stores in MA are getting rich. I think most are just trying to survive in a hostile environment.

Personally, I support them because if I don't maybe they won't be there when I need them.

 

[SheepDog_B]

*snip*

Personally, I support them because if I don't maybe they won't be there when I need them.

This. Completely.

 

[Conservativegirl]

.

 

[JayD]

Win some and lose some but I always buy locally. Its a shame there are so few (especially good ones) left.

 

[drgrant]

Most dealers are high in new england period, not just MA, although its worse here because of the sales tax. Deals can be had if you look around enough or know how to negotiate. (Hint: If you want better ammo prices, you need to make cases of it get sold at once. )

If you're not getting reloading supplies online (do not post sources that ship to MA, we will throttle you if you do) or from a place like Riley's or the other 2 or 3 vendors in the northeast that don't suck, you are probably paying too much.

Most gun shops that sell reloading supplies, especially in MA, tend to do so as a convenience for their customers- not unlike buying a gallon of milk at the local Store24 or whatever. You are going to get ripped off... but they have milk, and its in stock, and they know you will pay extra to avoid driving an hour or more.

-Mike

 

[glide]

I think they just like to jack up their prices because they can. There aren't many shops, and no other state is going to bother stocking MA compliant garbage.

In many instances I have found its cheaper to buy out of state, pay for shipping, drive to NH, pay for a gunsmithing work, and pay the NH transfer fee than it is to buy a new rifle in MA. And that is some sad, sad business.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Most gun shops that sell reloading supplies, especially in MA, tend to do so as a convenience for their customers- not unlike buying a gallon of milk at the local Store24 or whatever. You are going to get ripped off... but they have milk, and its in stock, and they know you will pay extra to avoid driving an hour or more.

Ripped off is a relative term.

I have access to the shop prices for reloading supplies, and the reality is that there is no "secret source" where dealers can get significantly prices better than a normal person can from an on-line supplier that competes based on price. If you're a big dealer, you can find a supplier that runs their own trucks and get primers and powder without hazmat, but you're not going to find primers for 15% or more less than your resourceful customers pay (not counting hazmat).

The going rate for pistol/rifle primers is about $24 from a mail/internet supplier and $32 from a shop. A 1/3 retail store markup on an item in the $20 price range is pretty reasonable. What is unusual, however, is that customers have access to the same pricing levels as the dealers due for the supplies. Ditto for powder.

If you get into other "consumer products" (think name brand shoes, jeans, current model bicycles, ipods, etc.) you will find that you won't get anywhere near a dealer price list without actual proof you are in the industry, and there may also be some serious volume purchase requirements.

And, of course, this also explains why many shops don't carry reloading supplies and those that do have a small selection at a seemingly high price.

 

[drgrant]

Ripped off is a relative term.

Perhaps that was a poor choice of words on my part, but it just feels that way, especially when you see gun show vendors with lower prices than local shops (and gun show vendors are usually notoriously high).

Expensive product is better than no product if you are in a pinch, that's what I was getting at. The gun shops with the $38 boxes of primers know this and thats why
they're priced that way.

-Mike

 

[mac1911]

up dated my OP

 

[JimB]

IMHO, when you buy reloading supplies you need to first look around, and

secondly buy in bulk. its that simple. or get in a group buy on NES..

speaking of which??????????

 

[mac1911]

bulk,,,,aint much of that round here SE MASS
Maybe some of the dealers can chime in
1000+ .308 FMJBT bullets
8lb jugs of powder----Varget,IMR4895/H4895, N-140
primers----

 

[swampy]

Mass retailers pretty much know...or think...they've got you captive due to the shipping crap. Most however just don't know what we want. I'd like to see a dealer open a bigger reloading department and perhaps do an annual pre-order large buy for bulk items for customers. I visited a shop in Easton Pennsylvania that was mostly all reloading stuff. Powder and primers were the same prices as online but no shipping surcharge. Bulk bullets were amply in stock and priced right. They had limited hours but when I was there on a Saturday they had a crowded store. I was back a few months later and they were set up at one of the gun shows I went to and had one a crowded table with lots of cash changing hands.

One problem I think is the Mass dealers often just order a couple boxes of high end bullets, several cans of powder and primers and leave it at that. How much demand is there for $40 boxes of .338 Barnes bullets in MA? The stuff sits on the shelves so they don't see a demand for components. If they bought 55gr .224 bullets in a 55 gallon drum and packaged them as you bought them they'd have customers in regularly if the price is right. I'd buy 1000 at a time that way rather than 5 or 10 K mailorder (to my new hampshire address of course!) Same with primers. What good is KTP doing limiting people to 200 primers? Why don't they have bulk .223 bullets? They don't really know or care about meeting their customer's needs. They get nasty rude when you ask for something they don't have. I suggest we explore the possiblility of an NES reloading supply store. Start with group buys for components but try to grow it into a self supporting retail outlet...maybe as a travelling show out of a van visiting select gun shops or clubs around the region.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Mass retailers pretty much know...or think...they've got you captive due to the shipping crap. Most however just don't know what we want. I'd like to see a dealer open a bigger reloading department and perhaps do an annual pre-order large buy for bulk items for customers. I visited a shop in Easton Pennsylvania that was mostly all reloading stuff. Powder and primers were the same prices as online but no shipping surcharge. Bulk bullets were amply in stock and priced right. They had limited hours but when I was there on a Saturday they had a crowded store. I was back a few months later and they were set up at one of the gun shows I went to and had one a crowded table with lots of cash changing hands.

One problem I think is the Mass dealers often just order a couple boxes of high end bullets, several cans of powder and primers and leave it at that. How much demand is there for $40 boxes of .338 Barnes bullets in MA? The stuff sits on the shelves so they don't see a demand for components. If they bought 55gr .224 bullets in a 55 gallon drum and packaged them as you bought them they'd have customers in regularly if the price is right. I'd buy 1000 at a time that way rather than 5 or 10 K mailorder (to my new hampshire address of course!) Same with primers. What good is KTP doing limiting people to 200 primers? Why don't they have bulk .223 bullets? They don't really know or care about meeting their customer's needs. They get nasty rude when you ask for something they don't have. I suggest we explore the possiblility of an NES reloading supply store. Start with group buys for components but try to grow it into a self supporting retail outlet...maybe as a travelling show out of a van visiting select gun shops or clubs around the region.

Let me throw this idea out (w/o having talked to those dealers I'll mention below first):

Why not talk with Adam (Acme Armament) and Carl (Four Seasons) to see if a large group buy (pre-paid, specific items/quantities) can be setup for reloading supplies. Since shipping and Hazmat fees can be a killer even if someone does/would ship to MA, this might work out equal or even better price-wise even including the sales tax.

I know that Carl has a LOT MORE powder than what you see in the store. His Fire Chief won't let him have more than a small quantity of powder on display in the store at a time.

Back some 30 years ago, I ordered bulk bullets this way (5K each caliber) from a small local FFL for a very good price due to the quantity that I was buying and hence the dealer was buying.

 

[mac1911]

as it stands there are many online vendors shipping to free states that still beat locally with shipping and hazmat included.
If carl has more powder why is there not a sign with the powder on the shelf with a note saying "more powder available"
Carls selection has dwindled in the past few years.
Adam did get me some bullets and primers but in small quantity----seems his supplier did not have much either ????

 

[cstockwell]

I was just looking for primers and was quoted $39.50/1k by a shop. I bit the bullet and had some shipped and paid the hazmat fee. I got 7k for $31/k with shipping and hazmat fees. I would have bought from the shop if the price was remotely reasonable. I think there is a legitimate gripe here but we also have to face the facts that we have a current situation with gun shops in this state and they have their own headaches to deal with as well. If a shop can not provide then we may have to buy elsewhere either online or taking a drive to another state.

 

[mac1911]

cstockwell, you made my point. With SHIPPING AND HAZMAT you still saved 8.50 per thousand saveing almost 60.00. How can joe retailer purchase for less than a shop.
I feel as if they just purchase from midway or other retailer for what we can pay and just tack on to make a buck----Are there not whole sale suppliers they can get these things from....such as JSC wholesale, Camfours ect ect.

Before EGE went out of business he was getting me anything I wanted JSC was delivering to his door sometimes 2 time a week. Ernie was just a small guy. He always showed me what he paid, most items he sold me ran about 35% over cost and still beat almost anyone....yes his over head was low

 

[sig2009]

With the cost of reloading I go with the cheapest place. I will not support a local business that rapes me!

 

[Acme.Armament]

bulk,,,,aint much of that round here SE MASS
1000+ .308 FMJBT bullets
8lb jugs of powder----Varget,IMR4895/H4895, N-140
primers----

Of course there isn't much bulk around here. One answer for that, Shipping. Dealers pay by the pound on bullets and powder! Then customers come in and say, "That's expensive! Can't you match 4S's or Dick's?" He'll no. They have the money to buy by the pallet. Us small shops can't afford to do that.

Why not talk with Adam (Acme Armament) and Carl (Four Seasons) to see if a large group buy (pre-paid, specific items/quantities) can be setup for reloading supplies. Since shipping and Hazmat fees can be a killer even if someone does/would ship to MA, this might work out equal or even better price-wise even including the sales tax.

I know that Carl has a LOT MORE powder than what you see in the store. His Fire Chief won't let him have more than a small quantity of powder on display in the store at a time.

As Len has said. If you folks want to put together a group buy, I will see what I can do to get it at the lowest price. I have a wholesaler out west that will be happy to ship large quantities, but it must be just that. 10k+ bullets, 50k+ primers/type, etc.

cstockwell, you made my point. With SHIPPING AND HAZMAT you still saved 8.50 per thousand saveing almost 60.00. How can joe retailer purchase for less than a shop.

Because the large country wide retailer can buy the reloading supplies in such a large quantity, that the Joe retailer can't even start to match those prices and still be able to make a few dollars.

I feel as if they just purchase from midway or other retailer for what we can pay and just tack on to make a buck----Are there not whole sale suppliers they can get these things from....such as JSC wholesale, Camfours ect ect.

Actually John, there are several to get these supplies from. You want to come and spend a morning searching wholesalers inventory to find not only what is in stock but also trying to find the lowest price? Yes, it would take you an entire morning. Ask Nicole the next time you are at Acme on how long it takes to find these things and place an order.
By the way, most wholesalers will beat Midway's price usually. If they don't, you would have to convince Midway or others to ship into MA.

Before EGE went out of business he was getting me anything I wanted JSC was delivering to his door sometimes 2 time a week. Ernie was just a small guy. He always showed me what he paid, most items he sold me ran about 35% over cost and still beat almost anyone....yes his over head was low

John, I have the same mark up on ammo and accesories! The small dealers have to, so they can keep pace with 4S, DSG, BPS. A customer buying one 8 pound can of powder, not only now will cost the dealer $25 for HAZMAT but will also incur the shipping cost per pound for that item.

With the cost of reloading I go with the cheapest place. I will not support a local business that rapes me!

Thank you for supporting your local small business. You and people like you are why there are only 120 or so dealers in Mass.! Go ahead, keep it up and more of us will leave and people like John, mac1911, will be the ones who suffer.

For everyone's info: Before you go harping on the MA dealers who carry reloading supplies in ANY quantity, go look at the MA Fire Marshall regulations and permit fees regarding the quantity of each. Take into account the specific storage requirements of these items. Then add the fees and costs to keep them on hand before you come down on the small shops who can't compete with the mega-FFL dealers.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

A customer buying one 8 pound can of powder, not only now will cost the dealer $25 for HAZMAT but will also incur the shipping cost per pound for that item.

There are two distributors that I know of, and probably more, that will ship to a dealer in their own trucks without a hazmat fee. In order to be on their "route" you need to be a regular or place large orders (One has a $1K minimum order).

The root of the problem is you guys (dealers) don't have a "secret source" to get primers, powder and bullets at prices way below what anyone with a non-MA maildrop can by dealing with a volume out of state supplier. A group buy would be a good thing, but we need to be realistic at the expectation - it will reduce the spread between mail order discount and normal retail shop purchases; not get a better deal.

 

[FalArAk]

Go ahead, keep it up and more of us will leave and people like John, mac1911, will be the ones who suffer.

LOL!

Capitalism is great,until it works against you.

 

[Zappa]

When I started reloading back in the 80's, there was a fantastic shop in Bedford called Tom's Handloading Center, owned by Tom Katchedorian. Tom was a heck of a nice guy, and he stocked everything I ever needed, bullets, powder, primers, shotgun wads, lead shot etc. I really wish there was still a place like that within 50 miles of Boston.

 

[drgrant]

Thank you for supporting your local small business. You and people like you are why there are only 120 or so dealers in Mass.! Go ahead, keep it up and more of us will leave and people like John, mac1911, will be the ones who suffer.

So we should overpay for stuff (sometimes by several/many dollars per unit) to have
the luxury of having more dealers in the state?

I applaud any dealer that tries to do business in this horrible state, but you can't seriously expect people to not want the lowest price (or at least something approaching that price) especially with all the increases in the past few years. Ultimately these increases get passed onto the consumer. It used to be flipping the locals a few extra bucks here and there was a lot more doable, and now with prices being off the wall many of us take any break we can get. Nobody cared about paying $28 for a a battlepack of .308 SA Milsurp (that really cost like $23 on (internet vendor here that I wont name) now that the same unit goes for like $70 or whatever, if someone can save 2 bucks on it, they're going to do it. It's all about the threshold of pain, and on a lot of commodity items, we're way past that number.

The other obvious problem is the mid level distributors took you guys for a ride during the obama scare. They beat up FFLs like rented mules held hostage, more or less. I'm still seeing effects of that garbage, dealers all over MA and NH have ammo on the shelves that is still way overpriced, and there are often large price swings even between the dealers. "Sticky Price" economics are still in play, which puts a lot of small volume dealers at a significant disadvantage. They're in the unenviable position of sucking up losses or hoping some sucker buys the inventory they paid too much for. [sad2]

Another thing I should mention.... back a few years ago prices between dealers were WAY more stable. If I mapped MA/NH ammo prices from shop to shop on a graph back in 2004 it would look like a saw blade with some peaks and valleys here and there. Now you do the same thing and you end up with something more reminiscent of a child's cartoon... completely bonkers. This makes people distrustful and they automatically hedge and seek the cheapest price in that environment. It's a gut reaction, of sorts. Additionally the disparity between dealers and walmart has gotten a LOT worse. It used to be I could get case prices on ammo within a few bucks of walmart, so I always used the dealers instead on things like WWB. Now it's probably $20+ on a case. (I reload most of that kind of
ammo now, so it's somewhat moot, but still... )

For everyone's info: Before you go harping on the MA dealers who carry reloading supplies in ANY quantity, go look at the MA Fire Marshall regulations and permit fees regarding the quantity of each. Take into account the specific storage requirements of these items. Then add the fees and costs to keep them on hand before you come down on the small shops who can't compete with the mega-FFL dealers.

I won't harp on any MA dealer that says "sorry we don't carry that stuff". It's easy to see why it's painful from a business perspective. Hell if I was an MA dealer I probably wouldn't carry it on a regular basis either.

-Mike

 

[groundscrapers]

I buy cheap before local any day. I do this not only personally but I am required to do it for my business. Im sorry if people don't like it but you need to figure out other ways to become competitive with pricing. Mabey work out a deal with your fellow dealers you are friendly with and bring in pallets of ammo and divvy it up.

 

[mac1911]

Adam this is a answer to one of my OP question. For everyone's info: Before you go harping on the MA dealers who carry reloading supplies in ANY quantity, go look at the MA Fire Marshall regulations and permit fees regarding the quantity of each. Take into account the specific storage requirements of these items. Then add the fees and costs to keep them on hand before you come down on the small shops who can't compete with the mega-FFL dealers.

I dont consider most of the places I have seen to be mega FFL dealers out of state or online.

This is what I am after answers. Adam I called you, asked for a product you delivered I paid. no complaints. I did not even ask how much until the order was in. I thanked you then I will thank you now. I have sent everyone who asks me about local dealers your way....I have made it no secret to you that I am a shop whore. My spending has been very little other than a few C&R items in the most recent past. Just dont have the cash. When I do have a bit of spending $$ I check out what you have. OK so reloading suppies is not your thing, I get it. No problem.
Still doing my best to keep it local----------

Maybe things have changed but when I used to purchase my powder and primers from EGE in hanover he got it through JSC and they delivered to his door. not once did he charge hazmat fee------"thats only for UPS/fedex not direct supplier to dealer", true or not I dont know.

Adam do you remember when we discussed camfour getting bulk surplus ammo, did they ever get it. If they did you never told me. Do you not deal with them anymore.

My point is....I went to see some friends in an area Im not familure with, found a little shop. Checked it out seen the prices and said WTF. I purchased a bunch of shotgun supplies as that is what I shoot the most of. They where even better priced than the BIG NEW YORK supplier the gun club goes through. I would use them but they cant seem to get the stuff I want either. order green dot get blue, order 8lbs get 2 one pounders, thats another story in its self.

Adam thanks for getting into it. We need involvement from the dealers to understand. Im sure the volume is there, Im a small time reloader and haveing a hard time getting 1k bullets locally, cant emagine what you guys loading several k have to do or where you have to drive to.

Adam dont take it personally as I made only a mention of you in a response to a question. Did not give a bad note.

On a lite note: People like me, what there are people like me out there, SHIT god I thought I was so special. Adam your not upset because I dont belong to one of the 2 parties are you? Adam can I still come buy or am I banned? Yeah know my daughter likes super dog and will be needing a pink gun in the not to distant future!

 

[scooter]

I'm not trying to steal this thread but the same goes for firearms. I wanted to purchase an M&P 15-22 at one place, but they were $40 more than the store 10 miles away(both in mass). When I explained I could get it there cheaper their response was go ahead and get it there then. Now this is a store I frequent and not new there. They didn't even try to take $20 off or something just did not want my Buisness. I bought the rifle at the cheaper dealer. I'm not sure why I'm telling this on this thread but the whole thing bothers me. Coustomer service was not there that day and that makes me sad, oh and thier primers were $38 bucks too.

 

[Acme.Armament]

There are two distributors that I know of, and probably more, that will ship to a dealer in their own trucks without a hazmat fee. In order to be on their "route" you need to be a regular or place large orders (One has a $1K minimum order).

The closest to us, Camfour, has a minimum $2500 order.

The root of the problem is you guys (dealers) don't have a "secret source" to get primers, powder and bullets at prices way below what anyone with a non-MA maildrop can by dealing with a volume out of state supplier. A group buy would be a good thing, but we need to be realistic at the expectation - it will reduce the spread between mail order discount and normal retail shop purchases; not get a better deal.

You are right about the secret source. BVAC in Montana has lower prices, but with the extra shipping the savings are nulified.

 

[Squished]

They didn't even try to take $20 off or something just did not want my Buisness. I bought the rifle at the cheaper dealer. I'm not sure why I'm telling this on this thread but the whole thing bothers me. Coustomer service was not there that day and that makes me sad, oh and thier primers were $38 bucks too.

You simply cannot say customer service not there that day because the shop didn't knock $20 off. Any shop has every right to stick to their asking price. Maybe they paid more for shipping due to less quantity, maybe they purchased from another distributor and paid more. But saying that customer service was not there because the shop refused to knock off $20 is not what customer service is all about.

By the sounds of it, in your own words, you frequent said store and not new there. Obviously up until this point they have provided you an exceptional level of customer service, maybe it warranted spending the extra $40 there, maybe it didn't?

Finally, I'm guessing your talking about NSF and FS. I'll shop NSF over FS any day. Dealing with grumpy sales folk, crowded stores, even if on occasion, is just not my thing.

Back on topic, I think group buys are a fantastic idea. The hardest part about buying a palette of bullets will be getting them delivered to someone with a forklift and a place to store them.

 

[Acme.Armament]

So we should overpay for stuff (sometimes by several/many dollars per unit) to have
the luxury of having more dealers in the state?

No you shouldn't. Maybe you should shop around in state and spend your money helping support a dealer that is trying to do business in competition with the dealers with deep pockets.

I won't harp on any MA dealer that says "sorry we don't carry that stuff". It's easy to see why it's painful from a business perspective. Hell if I was an MA dealer I probably wouldn't carry it on a regular basis either.

-Mike

You may not, but many others do. I try to have some basics such as primers and a few powders that are more frequently asked for.

 

[Nicole]

Jumping in to address the cheap vs. local/capitalism at work thing. Capitalism works much much better than any other system out there and I wouldn't want to be operating under any other system. You make your decisions about where to purchase & have at it. I will never begrudge you that.

But remember there are more factors at play than just price. Just in this thread we've already had people chime in about customer service issues. You can't have it both ways. If everyone goes for the cheapest price every time, well, the small dealers WILL disappear. And if that's what the bulk of the consumer base wants, there's no arguing with it. Behold capitalism. But when you have to drive 60+ minutes for ANY purchase, when shopping for anything firearms related is just like going to Walmart (think customer service, sales associate knowledge, special orders, etc), please don't act shocked. That is the cost of cheap prices.

To be crystal clear - I shop at Walmart. There are times I'm willing to trade quality of product or experience for a cheaper price. Hell, there are times when Walmart seems to offer me a better option and a better price. Going with the lowest bidder isn't automatically the wrong choice. But don't kid yourself that there's no cost attached to low prices. There is. Pick your poison.