KY accidental shooting

Quiet

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Cue all the "it's not the parent's fault" and "the 2 year old should have known better" posts.

How horrible. My wife and I are in tears over this.

Please lock up your guns when you're not using them.
 
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Do you require guidance to not murder someone? How about for stealing? Speeding? Or the other more than 10,000 laws (more than that) that you in all likelihood do not know more than half of...and thus are not able to be "guided" by?

And, if they are so stupid... how are they to know applicable laws?? You yourself called them incredibly stupid.

^Exactly! Just throwing more laws, or punishment does not negate negligence, or criminal acts, all it does it reduce liberty on those who already "behave" themselves.

- - - Updated - - -

Cue all the "it's not the parent's fault" and "the 2 year old should have known better" posts.

How horrible. My wife and I are in tears over this.

Please lock up your guns when you're not using them.

I seriously doubt that anyone here would say that it isn't the parent's fault, we are just saying we don't need more laws to prevent this from happening in the future, which we all know doesn't work.
 

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Cue all the "it's not the parent's fault" and "the 2 year old should have known better" posts.

How horrible. My wife and I are in tears over this.

Please lock up your guns when you're not using them.

No one here is saying anything remotely like that, so go troll somewhere else.
 

Quiet

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No one here is saying anything remotely like that, so go troll somewhere else.
You yourself said that the parents shouldn't be charged. That's exactly what I'm talking about. If they aren't charged you're saying it's not their fault.

Please stop calling me names. I'm not a troll, and your calling me a troll is rude.
 

mikem317

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I'm always split on these type of events. I hate the fact that governments use these events to push for more regulation. Regulation, like 'safe storage requirements' that can get good people dead quick.

At the same time, people need to be responsible. If you have little ones at home or little ones visit you (you being uncle, aunt, grandparent, etc.) then please remove them from where little ones can gain access to them.

If it's your SD/HD pistol, then consider just concealing it for the day/time that they are there, or just lock it up in your safe.

EDIT: Also, for folks not in the know, Google "NRA Eddie Eagle". IMHO, Eddie Eagle should make regular visits to all elementary schools across the nation. But a particular political party would certainly poo-poo that idea.
 

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I know it's hard to believe, but you can think the parents were wrong and still think its not the business of government to intervene.

When something bad happens you don't need to go crying to bureaucrats. Sometimes bad things just happen and you move on living with the results of your actions as a painful reminder.

Everyone here feels awful for the kids and wish it didn't happen. Fact is kids die of weird things by accident everyday. You can't be on top of them every second.
 

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I assumed he meant the troll too. Either way, drop it or take it to PM.

Now YOU'RE calling me a troll in public as well as in a PM too in the same sentence as telling me to stop?

Well done.

- - - Updated - - -

I know it's hard to believe, but you can think the parents were wrong and still think its not the business of government to intervene.

When something bad happens you don't need to go crying to bureaucrats. Sometimes bad things just happen and you move on living with the results of your actions as a painful reminder.

Everyone here feels awful for the kids and wish it didn't happen. Fact is kids die of weird things by accident everyday. You can't be on top of them every second.

It's fine that you have that opinion, we probably disagree. No reason to call me a name because we disagree.
 
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I know it's hard to believe, but you can think the parents were wrong and still think its not the business of government to intervene.

When something bad happens you don't need to go crying to bureaucrats. Sometimes bad things just happen and you move on living with the results of your actions as a painful reminder.

Once again, very nicely summed up, but I'm sure you will be vilified by some here for that opinion.
 

xtry51

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I'm always split on these type of events. I hate the fact that governments use these events to push for more regulation. Regulation, like 'safe storage requirements' that can get good people dead quick.

At the same time, people need to be responsible. If you have little ones at home or little ones visit you (you being uncle, aunt, grandparent, etc.) then please remove them from where little ones can gain access to them.

If it's your SD/HD pistol, then consider just concealing it for the day/time that they are there, or just lock it up in your safe.

EDIT: Also, for folks not in the know, Google "NRA Eddie Eagle". IMHO, Eddie Eagle should make regular visits to all elementary schools across the nation. But a particular political party would certainly poo-poo that idea.

The Eddie Eagle program is a good one and should have been allowed to expand including into schools if privately funded and optional. Sadly we all know that isn't going to happen.
 

EddieCoyle

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I know it's hard to believe, but you can think the parents were wrong and still think its not the business of government to intervene.

When something bad happens you don't need to go crying to bureaucrats. Sometimes bad things just happen and you move on living with the results of your actions as a painful reminder.

Exactly. I don't believe it was intentional. It was a tragic accident caused by negligence. These parents have lost one child, and have another that has probably been irreparably damaged. I don't think it would benefit society or the remaining child in any way to throw the parents in jail.
 

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I've avoided reading the comments here, as sometimes they're worse than the comments on the news sites... But based on page size happened to notice that Quiet is doing his thing again. I've already gotten an unjustified vacation from a mod who is obviously quite petty, amateur, and has no regard for context over this troll account... why he's not banned I don't quite get. Should I get banned again over this post, **** this place... i'll tip whoever can communicate on my behalf regarding the NH Code Red Lower buy.... I'm at Hiltonizer at Gmail dot Com

I'm sick of the tolerance for statist mentality here, it's embarrassing.

My thoughts on this issue in KY:

Laws don't fix stupid. Simple as that.
 
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I got twitterblocked by Richard Dawkins yesterday. He's a brilliant evolutionary biologist. I've read several of his books and I agree with his worldview, to a point.

Ole Rich may have been tipping a few glasses yesterday when he popped off about this ND involving a 5 yr old. He made some pigheaded comments about the NRA and gun owners, essentially saying that we're less evolved than civilized people.

I attempted to use his logic against him. Just like all scientists aren't atheist evolutionary bilogists, not all gun owners are irresponsible NRA zombies.

Oh well. Richy couldn't handle that and blocked my account. Thin skinned pseudocelebrity.
 

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Cumberland County Coroner Gary White said the rifle had a lock designed to keep a child from loading additional shells but not from being fired.

It sounds like the parents did put a lock on the gun. They just failed to clear the chamber, an all-too-common mistake, and their lock secured the bolt but not the trigger.

I wonder what we, as responsible and well-trained gun owners and safety instructors, can do better here? Here's a thought: The US Coast Guard Auxiliary has a program where a boat owner can request a safety inspection. If they pass, they get a sticker or certificate they can choose to display if they wish. There is no enforcement involved in this process, just the USCG safety recommendations, and a sticker if you comply with them. The inspector keeps no paperwork about problems. They hand their checklist/report to the boat owner and leave. As I understand it, they only retain paperwork if they award a sticker.

It occurs to me that we might offer a similar service, through the local gun clubs and/or the NRA, where you can invite a qualified volunteer to come to your home, review your situation, offer recommendations, and award a sticker/certificate if you're safe. Such an inspection might well have detected the chambered round, and/or the fact that their lock would not prevent a previously-chambered round from being fired.

I've seen mothers in gun-safety courses go pale as they realize that their home situation is unsafe. I've had them go directly home, fix the safety problem, and then call a family meeting laying down the new rules. This is great when it happens, but most mothers will never attend a gun safety course. I've been invited into a widow's home to determine if her late husband's guns are loaded. I've found people in violation of state law, explained the rules to them, and helped them become legal. I've had long talks with folks concerned about a family member's mental/emotional problems, and how they feared guns might be misused. I've had a family decide to hand me all their guns.

What do folks think of the idea of a "Home Firearms Safety Check" similar to the Coast Guard's "Vessel Safety Check"? Many of the qualified people who would volunteer to do this are on this list, so this seems the place to ask. The liability involved seems no worse than what NRA Instructors face when we teach.

-jpg
 

xtry51

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I encourage any form of private, voluntary service that increases knowledge of gun safety.

I am completely against government involvement in any such program whether by man power or funding.
 

Quiet

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Cumberland County Coroner Gary White said the rifle had a lock designed to keep a child from loading additional shells but not from being fired.

It sounds like the parents did put a lock on the gun. They just failed to clear the chamber, an all-too-common mistake, and their lock secured the bolt but not the trigger.

I wonder what we, as responsible and well-trained gun owners and safety instructors, can do better here? Here's a thought: The US Coast Guard Auxiliary has a program where a boat owner can request a safety inspection. If they pass, they get a sticker or certificate they can choose to display if they wish. There is no enforcement involved in this process, just the USCG safety recommendations, and a sticker if you comply with them. The inspector keeps no paperwork about problems. They hand their checklist/report to the boat owner and leave. As I understand it, they only retain paperwork if they award a sticker.

It occurs to me that we might offer a similar service, through the local gun clubs and/or the NRA, where you can invite a qualified volunteer to come to your home, review your situation, offer recommendations, and award a sticker/certificate if you're safe. Such an inspection might well have detected the chambered round, and/or the fact that their lock would not prevent a previously-chambered round from being fired.

I've seen mothers in gun-safety courses go pale as they realize that their home situation is unsafe. I've had them go directly home, fix the safety problem, and then call a family meeting laying down the new rules. This is great when it happens, but most mothers will never attend a gun safety course. I've been invited into a widow's home to determine if her late husband's guns are loaded. I've found people in violation of state law, explained the rules to them, and helped them become legal. I've had long talks with folks concerned about a family member's mental/emotional problems, and how they feared guns might be misused. I've had a family decide to hand me all their guns.

What do folks think of the idea of a "Home Firearms Safety Check" similar to the Coast Guard's "Vessel Safety Check"? Many of the qualified people who would volunteer to do this are on this list, so this seems the place to ask. The liability involved seems no worse than what NRA Instructors face when we teach.

-jpg


I like the way you're thinking.
 

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Cumberland County Coroner Gary White said the rifle had a lock designed to keep a child from loading additional shells but not from being fired.

It sounds like the parents did put a lock on the gun. They just failed to clear the chamber, an all-too-common mistake, and their lock secured the bolt but not the trigger.

I wonder what we, as responsible and well-trained gun owners and safety instructors, can do better here? Here's a thought: The US Coast Guard Auxiliary has a program where a boat owner can request a safety inspection. If they pass, they get a sticker or certificate they can choose to display if they wish. There is no enforcement involved in this process, just the USCG safety recommendations, and a sticker if you comply with them. The inspector keeps no paperwork about problems. They hand their checklist/report to the boat owner and leave. As I understand it, they only retain paperwork if they award a sticker.
This falls under "what you tolerate you encourage".

"We as gun owners" need to educate ourselves, children and community. That's it. We don't need rubber stamp stickers and "voluntary" inspection scheme which will invariably shift toward "not so voluntary". We certainly don't need any more nanny state, finger in your eye/butt, nosy neighbor nonsense laws...

We need firearm safety forums, not "gun violence" forums. We need firearms safety in our "fundamentals" classes in school. School never takes the place of the parent, but if we are going to have public schools, they should cover such basic things that are key to the safety of the community.

This is one of the many aspects of "true evil" that the anti-gun movement has accomplished. By vilifying guns they have removed the assumption of the average adult/parent of the moral/ethical requirement upon them to educate themselves and their children to firearms safety and safety in general. This idea of "no touch" is profoundly dangerous and not just with guns, but rakes, shovels, chainsaws, axes, fire, etc...

You name it and our anti-septic, have "the little people" do the manual labor elitist, progressive society is completely failing to provide the most basic parenting to their kids intentionally. They think avoiding things keeps you safe from them.

Ironically they endlessly ridicule the "Religious Right" for its "abstinence" campaigns in place of sex-ed and condoms, but can't seem to wrap their minds around the direct parallel with the laundry list of gardening tools I mentioned including firearms. Ignorance makes you less safe, not more.
 

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...
"We as gun owners" need to educate ourselves, children and community. That's it. We don't need rubber stamp stickers and "voluntary" inspection scheme which will invariably shift toward "not so voluntary". We certainly don't need any more nanny state, finger in your eye/butt, nosy neighbor nonsense laws...

I agree that we gun owners need to educate ourselves. Many of us volunteer as instructors just for that purpose. The fact remains that many people who own guns lack adequate safety training. The non-shooting widow who now owns and lives with her late husband's guns is a classic example, but there are many others.

I also agree that the government is not the answer. That's why I suggested that we, the shooting community, might expand our existing outreach and training efforts to include something like the Vessel Safety Check, where qualified civilian volunteers come to you, at your invitation, and review with you your compliance with regulations and safety rules.

For example, in a Vessel Safety Check, the inspector might point out a violation and say that if the Coast Guard ever boarded you for any reason and saw this, you would be subject to a fine, or whatever. The inspector is a civilian, helping you comply with the rules. I've had very similar discussions, where I explained to folks that they are violating the law, what the police would do if they knew, and how to fix it.

I don't think we disagree. If we do, I'm not seeing it.
 

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I don't think we disagree. If we do, I'm not seeing it.
It is in the detail of comparing vessel inspections to firearms safety inspections. I see a very slippery slope and past evidence of sliding rapidly down this slope that makes me unable to endorse these sorts of inspections. I don't see as much of a concern with vessel inspections because of the lack of a direct conflict of interest in freedom to pilot a boat vs that of being armed.

Let's be honest, government, no government has a vested interest in armed, free people. We are in competition with the institution's desire for more power, money, influence and its own "freedom" to act. It is the balance of and competition for power that allows us to keep freedom. So, when you consider what you allow "the state" to do, you always have to consider this institutional self interest. Even if the individual agent of the state is a person of impeccable integrity and "the best man/woman for the job ever", the person who replaces them is not.

As I said, what you tolerate, you support. So, this generation sees it as voluntary, the next is so accustomed to it that you start hearing about how "any reasonable person would do that right?" Then you move to, "if you don't you aren't reasonable so you can't own firearms until or unless you do".

This progression is the exact path to MA LTCs. It was well lubricated by apathy and tolerance of imposition that sounded "reasonable" in small steps.
 

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...I see a very slippery slope and past evidence of sliding rapidly down this slope that makes me unable to endorse these sorts of inspections...

Perhaps...

I'm an NRA-certified instructor & coach in a variety of disciplines, including Personal Protection in the Home. I signed up with the state of Mass to be on their list of folks qualified to provide the training required for a Mass LTC. I did this with the intention of helping folks learn to shoot safely, well, and legally. There are a bunch of LTCs and FIDs out there as a direct result of my efforts. Does this make me a part of the slippery slope you mention? Perhaps...

As I look back at things I've done, I have served in the role of the "Firearms Safety Inspector" multiple times, where people invited me into their home to assess their situation, identify issues, and help resolve them. Like the Coast Guard's Vessel Safety Inspector, I was not a government agent and it was not my place to report anything to the authorities. My role was purely educational, to help people understand how to be safe, and how to comply with the rules.

I don't see a slippery slope in inviting an NRA-trained person into your home to assess your safety situation. I see it as a natural extension of the training the NRA offers now. One problem with NRA training is breaking away from your life for a day or so to take a class. Especially for a mom with kids, it can be really tough to schedule time like that. Inviting someone into your home for an hour or so is logistically much easier. I think it would remove barriers that prevent many folks from receiving any NRA training.

I don't see a safety inspection as a substitute for an NRA class. I see it as a good complement for existing training. During a safety visit, it would be easy to cover the 3 basic rules of gun safety, to be sure folks know how to tell whether their guns are loaded, and to be sure they're properly secured. It would also be a chance to educate them about further training they might choose to pursue.

You are right that NRA Training might have encouraged the state to require training to get an LTC. I can see your argument how NRA safety inspections might encourage the state to require safety inspections.

When I look at shooting tragedies in the news, where mentally disturbed or very young people got access to guns and hurt people, it occurs to me that I've intervened in situations that could have led to such tragedies. In my role as NRA instructor, I've helped folks learn how secure their guns so their kids are safe, I've taught them and their kids gun safety, and I've removed guns when the family wanted that. I always leave them with my card, in case anything comes up in the future where they have questions.

I've done all that for families that ask me, because they happen to know me. Most families have no one to ask, and it occurs to me that this might be a service the NRA and the well-qualified shooting community can offer to the broader community.

Is this me helping the country down a slippery slope? Perhaps misguided legislation might follow from this. That's a valid concern, but I'd rather err on the side of making training & safety inspections available, even if we risk legislators requiring them some day. If offering voluntary safety inspections is a good idea, then it's a good idea, even if some legislator might create a stupid law some day.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there would be no demand for a Firearms Safety Inspection like this. Maybe I just happened to encounter a number of families who wanted me to do this for them, and such families are rare. If there is demand for such a service, I think it would be a nice extension of what the NRA does now. I'd volunteer as an inspector.
 

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Perhaps...

I'm an NRA-certified instructor & coach in a variety of disciplines, including Personal Protection in the Home. I signed up with the state of Mass to be on their list of folks qualified to provide the training required for a Mass LTC. I did this with the intention of helping folks learn to shoot safely, well, and legally. There are a bunch of LTCs and FIDs out there as a direct result of my efforts. Does this make me a part of the slippery slope you mention? Perhaps...

As I look back at things I've done, I have served in the role of the "Firearms Safety Inspector" multiple times, where people invited me into their home to assess their situation, identify issues, and help resolve them. Like the Coast Guard's Vessel Safety Inspector, I was not a government agent and it was not my place to report anything to the authorities. My role was purely educational, to help people understand how to be safe, and how to comply with the rules.

I don't see a slippery slope in inviting an NRA-trained person into your home to assess your safety situation.
Less of one, sorry, I thought you were suggesting PDs do this a'la coast guard? Multi-tasking fail on my part.

As a service the NRA would offer, there is a hill, but the slope is relatively gentle. Of course if there is no "inspection" process, it does make it harder for a legislator to say "why don't we just require that?"

I have seen that happen. A "safety course" turns into a barrier to exercise of rights where otherwise, they'd have to create one which slows the legislative train-wreck down (a good thing).
 

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Less of one, sorry, I thought you were suggesting PDs do this a'la coast guard?

I guess I didn't say this clearly enough in my initial post. The Coast Guard Vessel Safety Inspections are conducted by the Coast Guard **AUXILIARY**. These are civilian volunteers who help promote boating safety, not government agents. If the Coast Guard AUXILIARY sees a violation, the educate you about why it's a problem and how to fix it. So in this analogy, the Coast Guard AUXILIARY is like the NRA Instructor, and the Coast Guard is like the Police.

No gun owner I know would ever invite the Police into their home to check for violations or safety issues.
 
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I guess I didn't say this clearly enough in my initial post. The Coast Guard Vessel Safety Inspections are conducted by the Coast Guard **AUXILIARY**. These are civilian volunteers who help promote boating safety, not government agents. If the Coast Guard AUXILIARY sees a violation, the educate you about why it's a problem and how to fix it. So in this analogy, the Coast Guard AUXILIARY is like the NRA Instructor, and the Coast Guard is like the Police.

No gun owner I know would ever invite the Police into their home to check for violations or safety issues.

You got that right! Nothing good could EVER come from that. It is very likely that even the most compliant of owners would be jammed up for something since it is impossible to know every obscure law/ordinance that is already on the books. In that same vein, I kind of doubt that MOST gun owners would even invite a civilian "inspector" into their home either. I can tell you honestly that I would never even consider it myself because I value my freedom, privacy, and feel that I am adequately versed in safety as well as safe storage to protect my children from accidents. ymmv.
 
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