Kidnapping justifies lethal force?

[Pete85]

I don't have kids, but if I did, I don't think this would be a situation where I would give a damn what the law said. If someone were trying to kidnap my kids, it would be one of those situations: 1. Empty the magazine. 2. Insert new magazine 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 until out of ammo.

 

[06LemansC6]

depends on the situation. if it was a fat kid in a Walmart parking lot who'd been screaming and annoying me while I shopped, i might not take issue with it.

How is being fat relevant?

 

[kaetaur]

I would protect the child first and deal with the legal issues later. If I have to go to jail to protect my family then so be it.

 

[kaetaur]

My mother had a coworker who had a man grab her child in a packed pizza joint. She jumped up and grabbed her child by the arm and did not let go until the man let go of her child and fled. In the end do what you must regardless of the law to protect children if you as sure that they are in danger. Two people dumping a child in a trunk is abusive at min and the average court will think you believe their life was in danger.

 

[pwatkins]

Lawyers response II

I'll second that.

Perfect answer:



Since I DO have a child, I agree with this all the more.

 

[Bob P]

Nonetheless, I don't want to come off as a liar, so let me explain. Also understood; stats mean nothing, family means everything!



I said there's only a 0.5% chance an of an abduction leading to murder, but everyone else thinks it seems more like 50-70%!!! What gives!

Per the website:

“Of child victims of "stereotypical kidnappings, "40 percent are killed, 4 percent are never found”

Ok, but:

In 1999 there were 115 “stereotypical kidnappings”

Interesting?

So, 2002 there were 69,000 “abductions” which is what I believe we’re concerned with, given we all agree there is limited information in the scenario and a split-second decision is being made. (this is actually .17% of a chance)

I stated .5%, why?

Massaging the data? Maybe. Lets assume there were less “abductions” in 1999, say about 50,000? I think that’s fair. Lets also assume that another 40,000 are easily (split-second mind you) identifiable as someone not willing to kill the child. Consider your ability to ID a non-killer... So 40% are killed, of a pool of (after the fact) "stereotypical" kidnappings, means only 46 murdered. So 46 divided by our final, reasonable and heavily reduced pool, means about .5% of abductions, relevant to our scenario, result in a murder.

OK so .5% means what?

It just means that, given hindsight is 20/20, its much less like that an “abduction” will lead to murder. This is reasonable because, in this scenario, there’s no investigation, there’s no analysis, there’s nothing but the fact that someone is “abducting” a child, hence it gets immediately classified as an abduction and put in the 69k pot, which I feel like was reduced with a decent logic.


Again, who the EFF cares! Just don't think that I'm crazy or lying without reason.

Yah, but 47.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

 

[jhblaze1]

Bang, bang, bang!

82% chance you've just killed a family member, >90% you've just killed a family member or acquaintance, and there's only a 0.5% chance an of an abduction leading to murder,versus the (insert how proficient/accurate you are) chance you miss and do the job for them.

I know we're all the love children of John Wayne and a scout sniper, but statistically it would pay off to be a good witness. Flame suit activated.

 

[Baystatesuks]

I think few courts (even in the great bay state) would find you guilty if you had a reasonable belief to think a third party is being kidnapped and used lethal force to stop said kidnapping. If that third party has a special relationship with you, e.g., child, etc., then you have the right to step into their shoes and use any force that they could use against said kidnapper.

For the other scenarios, mistake of fact and necessity might be able to get you off on a manslaughter charge. There are just too many "what ifs" and "how comes" that enter this scenario to generalize an answer.

I personally would advocate stopping the kidnapper from committing the act by any means you have, lethal or non-lethal. If lethal, that would be better.

 

[Skeet732]

Okay so we have clearly established who the parents are in this thread! We wouldn't wait for a legal determination of our parental rights, we'd shoot the SOB and let God sort out the rest.

I'd like to take it one step further, in my fantasy world, I am given the address of every level 2 and 3 sex offender within 50 miles. I spend a weekend hunting! Problem solved.

 

[Baystatesuks]

Okay so we have clearly established who the parents are in this thread! We wouldn't wait for a legal determination of our parental rights, we'd shoot the SOB and let God sort out the rest.

I'd like to take it one step further, in my fantasy world, I am given the address of every level 2 and 3 sex offender within 50 miles. I spend a weekend hunting! Problem solved.

Inform the state of your idea. They may let you do it provided they can charge you enough for a hunting license. A new untapped revenue stream...

 

[06LemansC6]

I'd like to take it one step further, in my fantasy world, I am given the address of every level 2 and 3 sex offender within 50 miles. I spend a weekend hunting! Problem solved.

For the most part I agree, but the sex offender registry is deeply flawed. For example an 18 year old with a 15 year old boyfriend/girlfriend can be charged with rape and end up on this list for life.

 

[45collector]

I am not a parent but if I were present when some f@ckstick were trying to abduct my niece or nephew, I'm fairly certain I'd have to ram the muzzle of my 1911 up their @ss and pull the trigger 'till it goes "click, click".

ETA: In a properly working 1911, the slide lock should keep the action open upon the last round being expended, therefore impeding any forward travel of the hammer. In this case you would hear no "click, click", only the sound of the muscles in my finger fervently working the trigger back and forth against the sear spring. Just a clarification for those who might call me on that.

 

[Bob P]

I am not a parent but if I were present when some f@ckstick were trying to abduct my niece or nephew, I'm fairly certain I'd have to ram the muzzle of my 1911 up their @ss and pull the trigger 'till it goes "click, click".

ETA: In a properly working 1911, the slide lock should keep the action open upon the last round being expended, therefore impeding any forward travel of the hammer. In this case you would hear no "click, click", only the sound of the muscles in my finger fervently working the trigger back and forth against the sear spring. Just a clarification for those who might call me on that.

You're my new hero for that last bit there!

I'd do the same and in my case it might actually go 'cick click click' cause I've got a SIG and occasionally my thumb gets in the way of the slide lock when I get excited and it doesn't lock back. I suspect in that situation I'd be a mite excited and my grip would suffer for it

 

[45collector]

Yeah I hear ya Bob! Especially since you figure that if said f@ckstick is standing upright, you'd have to twist your wrist in an odd manner to get the muzzle nice and straight and snug up his @ss, therefore altering your grip and probably placing your thumb higher up the receiver towards the slide lock. Man, the things that we need to keep in mind huh?

 

[ochmude]

I am not a parent but if I were present when some f@ckstick were trying to abduct my niece or nephew, I'm fairly certain I'd have to ram the muzzle of my 1911 up their @ss and pull the trigger 'till it goes "click, click".

ETA: In a properly working 1911, the slide lock should keep the action open upon the last round being expended, therefore impeding any forward travel of the hammer. In this case you would hear no "click, click", only the sound of the muscles in my finger fervently working the trigger back and forth against the sear spring. Just a clarification for those who might call me on that.

A DA revolver might be better suited for that situation. I'd imagine you'd have some problems keeping a 1911 in battery after shoving it though a sphincter. Then there'd be FTE issues to boot. Definitely go with a revolver.

 

[45collector]

A DA revolver might be better suited for that situation. I'd imagine you'd have some problems keeping a 1911 in battery after shoving it though a sphincter. Then there'd be FTE issues to boot. Definitely go with a revolver.

I'm not a big wheelgun guy ochmude, but I definitely see your point. Although I was only planning on inserting the 1911 up so far as to just in front of the ejection port. Although cycling would probably be affected depending on how much of a tight-@ss f@ckstick is.

Then again the front sights on wheelguns tend to be more robust than on autos, which would afford f@ckstick just a tad more discomfort during our hypothetical scenario. So there's a good proponent for a six-shooter too!

 

[Bob P]

S&W .500

Discussion over.

 

[45collector]

Agreed.

 

[ochmude]

S&W .500

Discussion over.

^^^this post = win

 

[drgrant]

I'm fairly certain I'd have to ram the muzzle of my 1911 up their @ss and pull the trigger 'till it goes "click, click".

Any relation?

-Mike

 

[45collector]

Yes Mike, as we all know, no one f@ck's with de Jesus!

 

[Skeet732]

I am a advocate for the wheelgun to perform intestinal aeration, no chance of a jam

 

[Bob P]

I am a advocate for the wheelgun to perform intestinal aeration, no chance of a jam

& it's an example of an instance where the leakage between the cylinder and barrel actually is a plus!

 

[ochmude]

& it's an example of an instance where the leakage between the cylinder and barrel actually is a plus!

Ouch, that would burn more than Taco Bell.

 

[pwatkins]

Green Light

Hey all,

My safety class I took didn't cover many "self-defense" situations.. exactly what I am most interested in I plan on stopping by Joe's place again to discuss this in more detail...

I see in New Hampshire, the law specifically states kidnapping as justifying lethal force.. how about Massachusetts? If a guy snatches my kid (or someone else's kid), can I legally use lethal force to prevent my kid from being abducted? I could say the kid couldn't retreat and was under an immediate serious threat from the kidnapper... right? (I hope so! I couldn't imagine not shooting someone running away with my kid...)

The defense to consider would be "self defense or defense of others." The crime of Kidnapping is a violent felony punishable by up to 20 years in a Massachusetts State Prison.

 

[center442]

Hmmm...using a wheelgun to do a rectal correction on a kidnapper...I would think that blanks, especially from a major caliber, would work just as well as a regular cartridge. With the price and scarcity of components every little bit helps!

Just thinking, does KY jelly affect a blued finish? Or would it be better to stick with stainless?

So many technical things to consider.