Kidnapping justifies lethal force?

[Phr00t]

Hey all,

My safety class I took didn't cover many "self-defense" situations.. exactly what I am most interested in I plan on stopping by Joe's place again to discuss this in more detail...

I see in New Hampshire, the law specifically states kidnapping as justifying lethal force.. how about Massachusetts? If a guy snatches my kid (or someone else's kid), can I legally use lethal force to prevent my kid from being abducted? I could say the kid couldn't retreat and was under an immediate serious threat from the kidnapper... right? (I hope so! I couldn't imagine not shooting someone running away with my kid...)

 

[June4th]

On the degree of grave injury (or shooting justification), kidnapping my kids is way above having 6-inch of blade buried in my belly. But that's just me.

 

[FPrice]

If someone was trying to kidnap my kid, I would not give a hairy rittenhouse what the law says.

 

[pernox]

I'm not a lawyer, but I am POSITIVE that this falls under the "fear of grave bodily harm" clause. Your children are an extension of yourself, as well as "the innocent" which can be protected with lethal force if above mentioned grave injury is imminent. In addition, even the most scummy of prosecutors would have a hard time setting up a jury that would convict you on this.

That said, laws are the last thing on my mind if someone lays hand on one of my girls.

 

[appraiser]

no jury is going to convict anyone for that

 

[edin508]

Wouldn't care what the law reads at that point. I would defend my kids to the end, end of story. They can throw whatever they want at me at that point but knowing my kids were safe because of my actions would be worth it to me.

 

[Phr00t]

Thanks for the responses guys (and gals?)

 

[maee]

F the law, shoot him dead.

 

[06LemansC6]

Wouldn't care what the law reads at that point. I would defend my kids to the end, end of story. They can throw whatever they want at me at that point but knowing my kids were safe because of my actions would be worth it to me.

+1 No good parent would give two sh*ts whether or not the law allows for it or not.

 

[Palladin]

Bang. Bang, bang, bang !

 

[EC1]

If someone was trying to kidnap my kid, I would not give a hairy rittenhouse what the law says.

100% agree.

 

[Jose]

F the law, shoot him dead.

What he said

 

[zeppelinfromled]

+1 No good parent would give two sh*ts whether or not the law allows for it or not.

I disagree. No good parents would hesitate to do it, no matter whether it's legal or not. Nothing wrong with knowing the law.

 

[06LemansC6]

I disagree. No good parents would hesitate to do it, no matter whether it's legal or not. Nothing wrong with knowing the law.

I'm confused.....

My post was in response to this.

Wouldn't care what the law reads at that point. I would defend my kids to the end, end of story. They can throw whatever they want at me at that point but knowing my kids were safe because of my actions would be worth it to me.

I agree there is nothing wrong with knowing the law, but if someone were attempting to harm my child, the law will be the last thing on my mind at that time. I'm not sure what it is that you are disagreeing with. I would not hesitate to protect my children by any means necessary.

 

[Titan]

I agree completely with all of those who say they would do what was necessary regardless of the law, in the scenario proposed.


As for the law, the only way to know with any certainty is to consult a lawyer or test it and find out.

From a logic perspective, I would think that anyone could reasonably assume that someone executing a kidnapping could be legally shot. There's endless data to prove that kidnap victims are often/usually killed.

You don't see many kidnappings for money anymore in this country (outside the drug trade). It seems most abductions are by sexual deviants and the victims are rarely returned alive.

.

 

[zeppelinfromled]

I agree there is nothing wrong with knowing the law, but if someone were attempting to harm my child, the law will be the last thing on my mind at that time. I'm not sure what it is that you are disagreeing with. I would not hesitate to protect my children by any means necessary.

Well, that's what I get for not paying attention to what you were responding to.

 

[AR15_fanatic]

Bang, bang, bang!

82% chance you've just killed a family member, >90% you've just killed a family member or acquaintance, and there's only a 0.5% chance an of an abduction leading to murder,versus the (insert how proficient/accurate you are) chance you miss and do the job for them.

I know we're all the love children of John Wayne and a scout sniper, but statistically it would pay off to be a good witness. Flame suit activated.

 

[vellnueve]

Bang, bang, bang!

82% chance you've just killed a family member, >90% you've just killed a family member or acquaintance, and there's only a 0.5% chance an of an abduction leading to murder,versus the (insert how proficient/accurate you are) chance you miss and do the job for them.

I know we're all the love children of John Wayne and a scout sniper, but statistically it would pay off to be a good witness. Flame suit activated.

Um... no. Take your statistics and shove them. I'll rely on my practice, training, and skills.

Anyways, kidnapping is a capital crime. One shouldn't take the shot with the intent of killing, but with the intent of saving your child's life through the use of potentially or probably lethal force. If the kidnapper croaks, that's just an added bonus.

 

[MasterShinken]

Bang, bang, bang!

82% chance you've just killed a family member, >90% you've just killed a family member or acquaintance, and there's only a 0.5% chance an of an abduction leading to murder,versus the (insert how proficient/accurate you are) chance you miss and do the job for them.

I know we're all the love children of John Wayne and a scout sniper, but statistically it would pay off to be a good witness. Flame suit activated.

Great reason to get more training!

 

[dsm]

82% chance you've just killed a family member, >90% you've just killed a family member or acquaintance, and there's only a 0.5% chance an of an abduction leading to murder,versus the (insert how proficient/accurate you are) chance you miss and do the job for them.

And 87% of all statistics are made up on the spot, like yours.

And regardless of the accuracy of actual numbers, your application of them is bogus anyway.

Family abductions are not likely to be witnessed, as is a premise of the original poster's question, so that statistic is mostly irrelevant. Even if it was relevant, just because someone is a family member, or especially merely an aquaintance, does not in any way suggest deadly force should not be used against them. Family member and acquaintance are broad terms. If my next-door neighbor is making off with my child against my will, why should I not shoot him?

And while the chance of the abduction ending in murder maybe is as little as 0.5%, the chance of it involving sexual assault is as high as 46%. Not murder, but still a shootable offense in my book.

As to your comment about being a good witness, in 74% of child abductions that do end in murder, the child is killed within three hours. Not much time for policework with "good witness" input or not.

http://www.kidsearchnetwork.org/research-statistics.html

 

[06LemansC6]

Bang, bang, bang!

82% chance you've just killed a family member, >90% you've just killed a family member or acquaintance, and there's only a 0.5% chance an of an abduction leading to murder,versus the (insert how proficient/accurate you are) chance you miss and do the job for them.

I know we're all the love children of John Wayne and a scout sniper, but statistically it would pay off to be a good witness. Flame suit activated.

Do you have kids? I can't imagine that you do. If you did I can assure you that you would stop them from being harmed at all cost, and it wouldn't matter if you were armed or not. You would just do it even if keeping them safe meant your own demise.

You either don't have kids or are a You should prepare yourself for being after posting such ridiculous statement. Your statistics sound like something straight out of the Brady's handbook.

 

[Jose]

Bang, bang, bang!

82% chance you've just killed a family member, >90% you've just killed a family member or acquaintance, and there's only a 0.5% chance an of an abduction leading to murder,versus the (insert how proficient/accurate you are) chance you miss and do the job for them.

I know we're all the love children of John Wayne and a scout sniper, but statistically it would pay off to be a good witness. Flame suit activated.

Lookee here, we got ourselves another DU troll......

Tell you what sport. Come and try to take my daughter in front of me. Since my marksmanship sucks, you will not doubt walk away unhurt.

 

[Titan]

Bang, bang, bang!

82% chance you've just killed a family member, >90% you've just killed a family member or acquaintance, and there's only a 0.5% chance an of an abduction leading to murder,versus the (insert how proficient/accurate you are) chance you miss and do the job for them.

I know we're all the love children of John Wayne and a scout sniper, but statistically it would pay off to be a good witness. Flame suit activated.

I couldn't disagree more.

If I didn't have confidence in my training and ability to make a necessary shot, what would be the purpose of a self defense gun?

Or, is that you point?


Every night, the news is filled with stories of parents who didn't defend their children with guns, or young women who disappeared without being prepared to defend themselves. In virtually all cases, those abductees end up DEAD! BTW, since you posted hard statistics, I'd love a source link.

Doing nothing is certainly not the option I'd take if I witnessed the crime during its commission.

 

[AR15_fanatic]

Good discussion, but I think we're framing the scenario differently in our minds. I picture someone snatching the child and running away - forcing you to take a shot at a moving target at X yards away. Again, you are the #1 shot in the country, so obviously you will make the shot. I'm just offering my opinion for the other guys here (not you) who might not be as highly trained!

There's no point debating a point blank opportunity, I'm in agreement there.

 

[KMaurer]

If someone was trying to kidnap my kid, I would not give a hairy rittenhouse what the law says.

That said, laws are the last thing on my mind if someone lays hand on one of my girls.

Wouldn't care what the law reads at that point.

F the law, shoot him dead.

These all agree with the advice I've given students whenever one asks whether a particular situation warrants the use of lethal force. If you're at all concerned at the moment about what the legal system will do, the answer is almost certainly "no"; when it's as good shoot, you really won't give a damn.

Ken

 

[Gadsden]

And I call BS on the made-up statistics.

Better to be judged by 12 and worst case have to see that your kids are alive and well through a window than relive the moment that you could have saved them for the rest of your life.

I believe the proper term is "SSS"

 

[n1zfg]

For a kidnapping by someone other than a non-custodial parent, the chances of survival for the person being kidnapped aren't all that great.

In fact I believe them to be low enough to consider it an "imminent threat of deadly force"

 

[Bfatz]

My Kids, my Gun.......your done.

My kids are my world, enter that world at your own risk.

 

[Pilgrim]

I'm pretty sure kidnapping is a Federal capital crime, that is (or was) punishable by the death penalty.

It seems stopping it in the act would justify deadly force.

 

[zeppelinfromled]

What I take from his post is that, if I were to be in that situation, I should be careful not to hit anyone I care about. And if it's an acquaintance who is kidnapping my child, then the chances of hitting an acquaintance are definitely >90%.

Bang, bang, bang!

82% chance you've just killed a family member, >90% you've just killed a family member or acquaintance, and there's only a 0.5% chance an of an abduction leading to murder,versus the (insert how proficient/accurate you are) chance you miss and do the job for them.

I know we're all the love children of John Wayne and a scout sniper, but statistically it would pay off to be a good witness. Flame suit activated.