Methinks you have the wrong rule book. This thread is about IDPA.
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Just talking to someone who was DQ'd at the indoor nationals today...
- Thread starter jenlynn724
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Methinks you have the wrong rule book. This thread is about IDPA.
We were discussing a comment I made on a USPSA match. Follow the thread and you will not be confused. Many times comments encompass more than one sport![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Ahh, sorry I missed the ..."(USPSA)"... in your post.
I just saw Lugnut asking and immediately thought it was IDPA.
What do you expect? The whole sport was only created because a custom gunsmith realized HIS product was becoming obsolete in the sport he was competing in
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
TY43215
NES Member
What do you expect? The whole sport was only created because a custom gunsmith realized HIS product was becoming obsolete in the sport he was competing in
Preaching to the Choir Brother
What do you expect? The whole sport was only created because a custom gunsmith realized HIS product was becoming obsolete in the sport he was competing in
Interesting comment. Can someone explain in more detail?
OK then i'm looking forward to someone showing me in the rules book which makes it a DQ... no i wasn't the shooter but was there,also the SO that brought it up wasn't even sure what he was calling ...nice guy maybe he'll give the shooter back his $ 135.00 .....the MD dropped the ball and did not make the right call but then again a safety brief that lasted less then 30 seconds (not kidding) after there was a unfortnate accident last year i would think it would be a top priority for the good of all shooters as a reminder that never hurts.
I'm no expert, and I don't agree with Jay6, but Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat was one of the people who started IDPA. IDPA's CDP class was made, some would say, specifically so custom 1911s, like Wilson's, could win. But they don't anymore. I don't attribute bad-faith like Jay6 does.
if there is a "not permitted" why do you need a permitted ?...seems to cause more unnessecary confusion
strict about everything except safety from what i saw ....
I see your point but clearly explaining to a shooter who spent alot of money and time at this match is not to much to ask . the MD dropped the ball from the start (thursday) he sent shooters all over the place which turned out to be the wrong bays and stages to start .There were some real good people there and most SO's nothing but friendly and clear on running there stages. I refuse to comment about the SO who called this so called infraction but think a long hard look into consistant handling of rules violations needs to take place . Safety should be a TOP priority and roll from there.
9X21
Banned
What do you expect? The whole sport was only created because a custom gunsmith realized HIS product was becoming obsolete in the sport he was competing in
Not bad for someone who was probably 10 or 15 when IDPA started.
Your almost right, but Wilson actually was sponsering the top shooters in the country (TGO, ENOS, ( before Springfield Armory did) & MARK Mazzota) in the late 80's early 90's with state of the art COMP guns.
Compensated pistols got crazy when hi cap frames came along, (P9, Caspian MCormick/Tripp.STI, SVI whatever), around the same time (and because of) Limited class was born, but soon hi-caps where the thing to have there also.
Wilson did offer & sell hi cap race pistols.
The day of the single stack .45 / 38 super seemed to be over....(with or without a comp)
IDPA came out more as true warrior pistol craft, I doubt anyone, including Bill Wilson planned it all out as a ingenious business opportunity.
But, it did turn out that way.
Crappy shooter's like me, will always want the best possible equipment and I am willing to pay for it.
Big Name gunsmiths will always sell fantastic looking, reliable guns at stupid prices (and worth every penny) to schmucks like me, who just want to do the best I can......
(I really don't need the big name stuff, but Danny S isn't doing it FT anymore!)
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The motivation for IDPA's formation occurred at a member's meeting at a USPSA nationals many years ago where vendor concerned about the then new 1994 ban asked in USPSA would have a place for traditional, not wide body, guns. USPSA president Andy Hollar delivered a rebuke (basically explaining that our members don't want such a thing so it's not happening) after which the reaction was functionally "well then, we'll form our own sport and won't let the members vote so we can be sure to get our way".
The initial prevailing attitude when the mag ban happened was either "I've got mine, if you don't have yours it's not my problem" or "high capacity is not an advantage, but don't you dare take away the high capacity advantage I paid big $$ to get". Thinking has evolved considerably since that time, and USPSA has evolved to the point of providing several divisions (Limited 10, Production, Single Stack, Revolver) where high capacity is not an advantage. If USPSA has been more pro-active about this back in 1994 IDPA may bever have come to be.
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I have not competed in IDPA and probably won't because there are enough IPSC matches in the area to keep me occupied, but I have no axe to grind with IDPA. They have developed a reputation for being a bit "anal" as far as equipment rules and enforcement, and this is not necessarily a bad thing. IPSC Limited class was supposed to be a solution to the "arms race" but a lack of regulation allowed Limited guns to become just as pricey as their Open cousins. After witnessing this, I became much more amenable to close regulation of the equipment.
The problem here, as I see it, is not the rules but the way they were enforced. If match officials intend to examine pistols during the match to catch violations that would DQ the competitor, they should perform these checks PRIOR to the beginning of the match and give the competitor an opportunity to comply with these rules rather than be DQ'd later.
I have always believed that the responsibility of match officials is to run a safe match, a fair match, and also to do everything possible to make sure that each competitor finishes with a score, not a DNF or a DQ.
The problem here, as I see it, is not the rules but the way they were enforced. If match officials intend to examine pistols during the match to catch violations that would DQ the competitor, they should perform these checks PRIOR to the beginning of the match and give the competitor an opportunity to comply with these rules rather than be DQ'd later.
I have always believed that the responsibility of match officials is to run a safe match, a fair match, and also to do everything possible to make sure that each competitor finishes with a score, not a DNF or a DQ.
It was inspected, and handled during the first stage, and the DQ came much later. That is my biggest problem with it as well..
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One thing that differentiates USPSA/IPSC from IDPA is the use of the DQ. A DQ in USPSA/IPSC is issued only for a safety violation or gross unsportsmanlike conduct. If your gun fails to meet the requirements of the division for which you have declared, you are moved to open (and no, you don't get your inspection before the match - but the rules are clear enough to understand). If you ammo does not meet the minimum power factor for minor you shoot for no score, but are not removed from the match. If you DQ, you're done shooting.
IDPA, on the other hand, issues actual DQs for non-safety equipment violations.
I prefer the USPSA approach since it uses DQs for a very specific purpose, and uses the scoring system to address equipment violations. Also, one can file an arbitration on an equipment call and continue shooting until the Match Director calls you to present your side of the case to the committee - something more problematic if you've been removed the the shooting lineup.
IDPA, on the other hand, issues actual DQs for non-safety equipment violations.
I prefer the USPSA approach since it uses DQs for a very specific purpose, and uses the scoring system to address equipment violations. Also, one can file an arbitration on an equipment call and continue shooting until the Match Director calls you to present your side of the case to the committee - something more problematic if you've been removed the the shooting lineup.
Now this all makes sense, unlike what happened...
I think it is our responability as shooters to know if our equipment is legal or not. We all recieved a rule book when we joined IDPA so we cannot claim ignorance. Anytime I have made modifications to my pistol I checked the rule book to remain complient. If a modification is made that is not on the permitted list for that particular division than its the shooter fault for not following the rules. This is just my opinion on the matter.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Guys- in IDPA if you have a non-safety violation as in this case you ARE allowed to shoot... although your score won't count- they don't have an OPEN division to move them to. Hey, some of the rules in IDPA and USPSA are stupid... and sometimes in IDPA they are more vague no doubt. As much as I feel bad- this shooter had an equipment violation and was allowed to continue with no score. As far as equipment checks before the match- lets just say I have mixed feeling on this.
Bring equipment that the rule book allows and be done with it. The shooter in this case unfortunately had a firearm modification that was not allowed.. period. He got to shoot the match. What the hell is all this bashing about??? I really get tired of the bashing on this forum- and mostly from USPSA guys. Sevigny, Jarett, Vogel and dozens of other top shooters seem to find a way to fit into both sports without problems. Enough whining already.
So, you'd rather let people cheat? I'm not saying this particular shooter was purposefully cheating, but if you don't enforce the equipment rules at a nationals level match, plenty of other people would.
I was DQ'ed because of an extended slide stop. It was my own fault. I did read the rule book, but did not see that the permitted modification list was an inclusive list. I still do not understand why an excluded modification list is necessary. It seems to just create confusion, well it did for me. Other people I spoke to, including other SO's at the match, did not realize this was a violation either. I was allowed to finish the match, but being disqualified after shooting 6 stages really ruins the rest of the match. The only reason I shot the rest of it was my ride was still shooting. I will continue to shoot the club matches, but I don't think I will shoot a major match again until the rule book is clarified. The time and money investment was too much to be kicked out half way through.
With all due respect I don't understand this. Would you rather get kicked out at the beginning? What's the difference? You know the rule and what to do now so just address the issue. At many major matches- whether it IDPA or USPSA- they don't do the equip/chrono for everyone at the start... it's just too much work. I do agree that some of the rules need clarification- that is for sure. However if there are any mods that a shooter is not clear on- it's always is good to get in touch with the MD ahead of time- I did this myself. Quite frankly the rules should be the same at local matches although not quite as strictly enforced... it's just too much effort.
On a positive note- you got to admit- some of the stages were quite interesting and challenging. You don't always get that at a local match. As you know- John and I are running the NER locally, we'd be happy to have you join us. He may have already asked you to help out- not sure.
Dude.. It sounds like that's exactly what you are saying.. That would be like me saying.. I'm not calling you a douchebag, but that's an awfully db thing to say thing to say...
Sorry if I wasn't clear. Trav made an honest mistake. However, if you let honest mistakes slide at a nationals, shooters who want the win above everything will start pushing limits.
