Just talking to someone who was DQ'd at the indoor nationals today...

[jenlynn724]

So, after getting through half of the match, an SO brings up that he doesn't think the extended slide stop on the shooters gun is legal, and refers him to the MD.. The shooter asked where that rule was written, and the MD couldn't produce it, so he called it a judgement call, and DQ'd the shooter.. I have heard of some f'd up things happening at the indoor competition last year, which was one of the big reasons I didn't even attempt to go, but really?? If there is a rule, blatant, or overlooked, fine, shooters problem, but if someone decided they didn't like this guy when they saw him, and decided to implement a non-existent rule halfway through, that is f'd up. I mean if it is a rule, how did it get by the previous SO's? If I paid $130.00 and was DQ'd for a rule you can't even produce, I would be causing such a scene..

 

[TheRoland]

Uh oh.

Can you get specifics? I'd love to know what class and what gun? There are guns that the extended slide stop is legal on, and some that it isn't (generally, Glocks are good to go, others arn't). Getting a call like this wrong at a nationals match is pretty messed up.

 

[jenlynn724]

Uh oh.

Can you get specifics? I'd love to know what class and what gun? There are guns that the extended slide stop is legal on, and some that it isn't (generally, Glocks are good to go, others arn't). Getting a call like this wrong at a nationals match is pretty messed up.

It was a browning hi-power.. what else do you want to know? I think he shoots ESP?

 

[TheRoland]

It was a browning hi-power.. what else do you want to know? I think he shoots ESP?

Unfortunately for the shooter, the MD probably made the right call here, unless the slide stop was extended stock, from the factory. I'm by no means an expert on this topic, and ESP slide stops aren't specifically excluded, but they're not on the list of allowed modifications, which seems to be what really matters. Slide stops in particular have had to be factory or bust.

I've heard more than a couple of DQs for this over the past few months I've actually followed IDPA.

Again, I'm not an expert, but there it is.

 

[jenlynn724]

Where is this rule written? The issue the shooter has is the fact that nobody can produce the rule to him. I don't have my rule book handy at the moment either. I mean the gun is all black, including the grips, and the slide stop is chrome, not easy to miss.

 

[TheRoland]

The "Permitted Modification" list is inclusive. If it's not on that list, you can't do it. Extended slide stops is not on the list, but there's specifically an exception for Glocks.

IDPA does not do a good job updating their rules to be clear and cite-able. I agree there should be a rule that can be pointed at. But there isn't.

 

[jenlynn724]

I just read that..

 

[Supermoto]

I never understood why IDPA won't let you shoot for no score on non saftey related violations. Just seems mean

 

[eisenhow]

This isn't by any chance your husband is it?

I heard last year they were very strict, I wouldn't be surprised if there are more DQ's.

 

[TheRoland]

Being forced to stop shooting over this sounds awful, especially because DQs like this are in a very real way related to rules that are in dire need of a re-write.

 

[jar]

I never understood why IDPA won't let you shoot for no score on non saftey related violations. Just seems mean

Any match I direct, you can. If it's a club match, I'll even put you on the scoresheet under 'supermoto's special cheater class'.

I'm leaving off my other comment because it's a can of worms that doesn't need opening.

ETA: The rules stating permitted modifications - inclusive list is clear enough to me. The terminology could be better, but once it's explained that mods on the list are allowed, no other mods are, it's pretty straightforward. There are plenty of weaknesses in the IDPA rulebook, but I don't think this is one.

 

[Supermoto]

Any match I direct, you can. If it's a club match, I'll even put you on the scoresheet under 'supermoto's special cheater class'.

I'm leaving off my other comment because it's a can of worms that doesn't need opening.

Oh come on, don't hold back. I'm all for punishment for not following the rules, but kicking someone out that spent a lot of money on travel expense, hotel etc just because of a small infraction is crazy. IDPA should treat their members better

 

[TheRoland]

Oh come on, don't hold back.

I, for one, would also like to hear what Jar really thinks!

There are certainly reasons the "permitted" and "not-permitted" list needs rule-book clarification. For example, replacement grips are legal in SSP, stippling is not. What about stippled replacement grips? I'm pretty sure the answer is "they're fine" and I run one on my gun, but how can I prove this to an MD?

 

[meth0d]

Oh come on, don't hold back. I'm all for punishment for not following the rules, but kicking someone out that spent a lot of money on travel expense, hotel etc just because of a small infraction is crazy. IDPA should treat their members better

Absolutely, I've been interested in joining one of the competitive shooting organizations, things like this push me away from joining up with IDPA.

 

[M1911]

I, for one, would also like to hear what Jar really thinks!

There are certainly reasons the "permitted" and "not-permitted" list needs rule-book clarification. For example, replacement grips are legal in SSP, stippling is not. What about stippled replacement grips? I'm pretty sure the answer is "they're fine" and I run one on my gun, but how can I prove this to an MD?

Send a letter to IDPA, asking for a written reply on letterhead. Take that with you to the match.

 

[M1911]

Absolutely, I've been interested in joining one of the competitive shooting organizations, things like this push me away from joining up with IDPA.

When it comes to local matches, you really don't have to worry. They aren't that strict.

 

[jenlynn724]

When it comes to local matches, you really don't have to worry. They aren't that strict.

The local matches are for the most part easy going, and fair. Everyone is there to enjoy themselves, and improve upon their skills. There are some exceptions of course.

 

[jar]

I, for one, would also like to hear what Jar really thinks!

I just avoided bringing up a similar event from this match last year. It's on the forum if you look.

 

[TY43215]

I shot the S&W Winter nationals, winter Championships, Winter whatever you want to call them from 2000 to 2007. Skipped 08, went back in 09. It was always a great match. Rules were followed and enforced Consistently until my match in 09. The 2009 was the worse match I have ever been to. That is as far as I will go. I have made my feeling clear. I will NEVER shoot at S&W again in an IDPA match.

Now, that all said, don't go by what you "heard" as far as a DQ goes. Equipment rules are reasonable clear. Depending on division, you have mods that are allowed. My problem is how does it get let go for 1, 2, 3 or more stages then all of a sudden it is a problem? Last year, My Moon clip holders were moved by SOs on three different stages. They all had their own opinions. I did as I was asked but thought it was the most ridiculous attempt of micro managing I have ever seen.

To SUPERMOTO, IDPA does not have members. It has customers. IDPA is a for profit organization selling a product. The customer service sucks.

 

[TY43215]

The local matches are for the most part easy going, and fair. Everyone is there to enjoy themselves, and improve upon their skills. There are some exceptions of course.

The problem with easy going local matches is when someone attends a major and now their equipment is not legal, they get upset. The rules need to be set in stone. If it is not good for a State, regional or National match, it should not be allowed at a local match. I see a lot of equipment violations let go in both action sports I shoot. There are videos posted here that show blatant violations. One shooter was at a match and had a D ring on his belt on one stage to hang a prop off. Didn't have it next stage. (USPSA) guess what? Rules violation. Once a year in IDPA local matches you should have to have your gun weighed and put in the box. That way you are sure you are within the rules before you pay a major match fee and get sent home.

Treating the customer on all levels with respect and courtesy is of the utmost importance. Helping them understand and follow the rules is the duty of every trained SO. Mr Nice guy is fun on the range but serves no purpose in teaching new shooters the proper way to play the game.

 

[Steve_P]

The problem with easy going local matches is when someone attends a major and now their equipment is not legal, they get upset. The rules need to be set in stone. If it is not good for a State, regional or National match, it should not be allowed at a local match. I see a lot of equipment violations let go in both action sports I shoot. There are videos posted here that show blatant violations. One shooter was at a match and had a D ring on his belt on one stage to hang a prop off. Didn't have it next stage. (USPSA) guess what? Rules violation. Once a year in IDPA local matches you should have to have your gun weighed and put in the box. That way you are sure you are within the rules before you pay a major match fee and get sent home.


Treating the customer on all levels with respect and courtesy is of the utmost importance. Helping them understand and follow the rules is the duty of every trained SO. Mr Nice guy is fun on the range but serves no purpose in teaching new shooters the proper way to play the game.

Hmmm, I resemble that remark....
I didn't realize that was a no-no. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[DISTINGUISHED PISTOL SHOT]

I'd like to hear more on this too. Round Gun Shooter, what was going on at S&W 09? Why is it, that there is a climate of "Range Nazi's" sprouting up all over New England ranges?

One range has open burning of trash....but single load rifle rounds only,........ next to the open flames?
Another range has RSO's that bust your balls for not physically wearing a member ID.
Another range has members *********removed by request*********
I need to move to Nevada.....Out

 

[Underwhere]

I didn't hear about the DQ. Wasn't in my group.

Did the shooter go home or was he allowed to finish the match for no score?

Extended slide stop releases and mag releases are on an inclusive list.

That was very picky of them...but often times club matches do not stress the very particular rules.

This was the first time my gun and magazine were weighed after being chrono'd.

 

[Lugnut]

To my knowledge the shooter was able to CONTINUE shooting the match.. so let's not start ugly rumors about this.

 

[Lugnut]

The problem with easy going local matches is when someone attends a major and now their equipment is not legal, they get upset. The rules need to be set in stone. If it is not good for a State, regional or National match, it should not be allowed at a local match. I see a lot of equipment violations let go in both action sports I shoot. There are videos posted here that show blatant violations. One shooter was at a match and had a D ring on his belt on one stage to hang a prop off. Didn't have it next stage. (USPSA) guess what? Rules violation.

Gary- I shot that stage with a Carabiner... I specifically asked the SO if it was ok and was told yes. When in doubt I always ask!

Once a year in IDPA local matches you should have to have your gun weighed and put in the box. That way you are sure you are within the rules before you pay a major match fee and get sent home.

Treating the customer on all levels with respect and courtesy is of the utmost importance. Helping them understand and follow the rules is the duty of every trained SO. Mr Nice guy is fun on the range but serves no purpose in teaching new shooters the proper way to play the game.

I agree 100% on this. You should always give the shooter the benefit whenever possible. However egregious issues should be dealt with swiftly.

 

[TY43215]

Gary- I shot that stage with a Carabiner... I specifically asked the SO if it was ok and was told yes. When in doubt I always ask!

You are not allowed to add and remove gear from your belt. You start with it, you finish with it. Special gear for special stages is not allowed. But what the heck, you got away with it. You would not at a Major

 

[Scrivener]

Gary- I shot that stage with a Carabiner... I specifically asked the SO if it was ok and was told yes. When in doubt I always ask!

Carabiners? What; did the course of fire require belaying off a wall?

Oh, wait - that's The Eiger Sanction qualifier; right?

 

[Lugnut]

You are not allowed to add and remove gear from your belt. You start with it, you finish with it. Special gear for special stages is not allowed. But what the heck, you got away with it. You would not at a Major

Can you specify which rule addresses this? So if I wanted to add an extra mag pouch or take one of during the match I'd be DQ'd?

 

[Lugnut]

Carabiners? What; did the course of fire require belaying off a wall?

Oh, wait - that's The Eiger Sanction qualifier; right?

LOL. Good idea though. There was a stage at Manville where you had to hold onto a rope which restricted your movement. I can't remember the specifics but some people attached it with a knot on their belt, some looped it around a mag on their belts. Me and a few others "shared" a carabiner to attach ourselves to the rope. Was not a problem at that match.

 

[TY43215]

Can you specify which rule addresses this? So if I wanted to add an extra mag pouch or take one of during the match I'd be DQ'd?

5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required
by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment
must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match



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