Just talking to someone who was DQ'd at the indoor nationals today...

With all due respect I don't understand this. Would you rather get kicked out at the beginning? What's the difference? You know the rule and what to do now so just address the issue. At many major matches- whether it IDPA or USPSA- they don't do the equip/chrono for everyone at the start... it's just too much work. I do agree that some of the rules need clarification- that is for sure. However if there are any mods that a shooter is not clear on- it's always is good to get in touch with the MD ahead of time- I did this myself. Quite frankly the rules should be the same at local matches although not quite as strictly enforced... it's just too much effort.

On a positive note- you got to admit- some of the stages were quite interesting and challenging. You don't always get that at a local match. As you know- John and I are running the NER locally, we'd be happy to have you join us. He may have already asked you to help out- not sure.

I'm going to answer for him, since he was just paged out for a HAZMAT call, and won't be back for hours. He knows he was wrong in the end, and isn't trying to blame anyone, or even the sport.. The rules absolutely need clarification, regardless of the one or two SO's who think they are clear once they are explained. The fact that he called multiple well respected SO's, and spoke to some others at the match itself, and they didn't believe it was an illegal mod pretty much proves there is an issue. The SO who called it out said he wasn't sure if it was a legal mod.. ?? I do agree that the rules should be the same to avoid this kind of confusion..[grin]
 
Sorry if I wasn't clear. Trav made an honest mistake. However, if you let honest mistakes slide at a nationals, shooters who want the win above everything will start pushing limits.

This is why I believe rules need to be adhered to at all levels..(The same rules)
 
This is why I believe rules need to be adhered to at all levels..(The same rules)

I agree that consistent enforcement of the rules is the solution. I already have a list of questions to ask at my SO course in a few weeks. I saw lots of inconsistencies in how dropped head shots were scored. Some people counted the dropped head as a body shot (and -5 for the head), some thew out the best body shot (and -5 for the head), and others gave -5 for the head and a procedural.
 
With all due respect I don't understand this. Would you rather get kicked out at the beginning? What's the difference? You know the rule and what to do now so just address the issue. At many major matches- whether it IDPA or USPSA- they don't do the equip/chrono for everyone at the start... it's just too much work. I do agree that some of the rules need clarification- that is for sure. However if there are any mods that a shooter is not clear on- it's always is good to get in touch with the MD ahead of time- I did this myself. Quite frankly the rules should be the same at local matches although not quite as strictly enforced... it's just too much effort.

On a positive note- you got to admit- some of the stages were quite interesting and challenging. You don't always get that at a local match. As you know- John and I are running the NER locally, we'd be happy to have you join us. He may have already asked you to help out- not sure.

The MD did not clarify anything and the way he handled it was wrong in every aspect so your comment concerning contacting the MD was off ...i know ,i was right there during the handling of this incident period
 
I'm going to answer for him, since he was just paged out for a HAZMAT call, and won't be back for hours. He knows he was wrong in the end, and isn't trying to blame anyone, or even the sport.. The rules absolutely need clarification, regardless of the one or two SO's who think they are clear once they are explained. The fact that he called multiple well respected SO's, and spoke to some others at the match itself, and they didn't believe it was an illegal mod pretty much proves there is an issue. The SO who called it out said he wasn't sure if it was a legal mod.. ?? I do agree that the rules should be the same to avoid this kind of confusion..[grin]

We are in agreement. But I did say get clarification from the MD, not other SOs before hand. I got a response in email- which I brought to the match with me. Let's hope a new rule book comes out soon and removes as much ambiguity as possible.

Here's my perspective- I tend to not care that someone uses this slide lock or that trigger kit, etc., etc. It's my opinion that these things may help a shooter- given that some of us have smaller hands, short fingers, etc. But in the end, no equipment will replace skills needed to advance. If someone was to beat me in a match and they had a extended slide stop- I'll be sure to live another day, I'm not missing out in endorsements or big prizes. That being said there are some shooters and SOs that do care a lot and that's why the rules need to be applied as consistently as possible. It's not easy but it should get better.

Some folks squawked last year as some of the people checking equipment seemed like it was easy to check the grip safety of 1911s and did so. However some of gun safeties were not checked. Is that fair? I'm not sure if it's fair or not. But if you are shooting a gun in competition I think the burden is on the shooter to make sure their gun works as it should. If it doesn't- you can't blame the guy that got thru a safety check that shouldn't have- karma will have it's way on them another day...
 
The MD did not clarify anything and the way he handled it was wrong in every aspect so your comment concerning contacting the MD was off ...i know ,i was right there during the handling of this incident period

I was suggesting to contact the MD ahead of time... not during the match. I think you missed that part.
 
I was suggesting to contact the MD ahead of time... not during the match. I think you missed that part.

NO, I didn't miss what you said and i was standing right there when the situtation was handled and at the very least (as i wrote in previous thread) a clear clarification on the reason for DQ is something that should be a no brainer at any level match. This guy is a stand up guy and not someone trying to pull a fast one for an advantage.I refuse to beat this topic to death but i hope that the comments it has generated will bring a better resolution to future handling of rule intrepretion and the proper way to deal with both safety and non-safety firearms infractions.I like to think a good reputation for IDPA will bring more shooters which leads to more of a challange and this is what makes it fun.
 
NO, I didn't miss what you said and i was standing right there when the situtation was handled and at the very least (as i wrote in previous thread) a clear clarification on the reason for DQ is something that should be a no brainer at any level match. This guy is a stand up guy and not someone trying to pull a fast one for an advantage.I refuse to beat this topic to death but i hope that the comments it has generated will bring a better resolution to future handling of rule intrepretion and the proper way to deal with both safety and non-safety firearms infractions.I like to think a good reputation for IDPA will bring more shooters which leads to more of a challange and this is what makes it fun.

I know Travis and am not implying anything at all about his integrity. That is not all what this is about now. I agree the rules could and should be clearer and that's why it's so important that we as the shooting community need to push these issues.

But until things are clearer and not to beat a dead horse... but my point was- if you make a change to a gun or have any questions at all... contact the MD BEFORE the match starts. I'm talking about weeks before. I'm not saying this situation was handled by the MD at the match as well as it should of been- I have no idea.

Many of us are actively trying to make IDPA better for other shooters- we're all in this for the same thing- to have a fun shooting experience. I'm not going to sit here and bitch about a particular person, but instead I'm trying to offer an alternative for any shooters going forward. As they say- if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.


One last thing- We ALL are part of IDPA (shooters AND people running a match). HQ puts out a rule book but everything else is controlled by us shooters for the most part.
 
I know Travis and am not implying anything at all about his integrity. That is not all what this is about now. I agree the rules could and should be clearer and that's why it's so important that we as the shooting community need to push these issues.

But until things are clearer and not to beat a dead horse... but my point was- if you make a change to a gun or have any questions at all... contact the MD BEFORE the match starts. I'm talking about weeks before. I'm not saying this situation was handled by the MD at the match as well as it should of been- I have no idea.

Many of us are actively trying to make IDPA better for other shooters- we're all in this for the same thing- to have a fun shooting experience. I'm not going to sit here and bitch about a particular person, but instead I'm trying to offer an alternative for any shooters going forward. As they say- if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.


One last thing- We ALL are part of IDPA (shooters AND people running a match). HQ puts out a rule book but everything else is controlled by us shooters for the most part.

Think long and hard about your statement .." "if your not part of the solution ,you are part of the problem"
 
Bring equipment that the rule book allows and be done with it. The shooter in this case unfortunately had a firearm modification that was not allowed.. period. He got to shoot the match.

Which is about the best that could be hoped for in the circumstances. The rules are there and available for review.
 
The IDPA rulebook is actually very simple when it comes to gun modifications. It comes down to understanding the word "inclusive". It means if it is on the permitted list then it is allowed. If it is not on the list it is illegal. It's that simple. The following is the list for Stock Service Pistol.


PERMITTED Modifications (Inclusive list):
1. Sights may be changed to another conventional notch and
post type (see “sights” in glossary for further information).
2. Grips may be changed to another style or material that is
similar to factory configuration (no weighted grips; see
“weighted grips” in glossary for further details).
3. A slip-on grip sock and/or skateboard tape may be used.
4. Internal action work may be used to enhance trigger pull as
long as safety is maintained (no visible external modifications
allowed).
5. Reliability work may be done to enhance feeding and
ejection.
6. Internal accuracy may be worked to include replacement of
barrel with one of factory configuration and original caliber.
7. Plastic plugs may be used to fill the opening behind the
magazine well.
8. Custom finishes may be applied.
NOTE: The slide releases and magazine releases that are standard
on the Glock 34 and 35 models are available as a factory option on
all Glocks available in the USA. Because of this, that type of slide
release and magazine release are legal on all Glocks for SSP.
 
I think that if you are an SO, especially if you are at a major match, before you call a penalty you need to know for sure whether or not something is an infraction, and, what the proper penalty is. Sometimes it's a judgment call... at a major match in 2008 I had two calls made on me on the same stage. One was clearly in the rulebook, and the SO made a mistake, and the other was questionable. The clear violation was the stage description said fire two to the body, 1 to the head. The rule book says that any hits in the head will be called -0 unless it is specified in the stage briefing that shooting all shots to the head to avoid sight transition would result in a procedural penalty. I fired a makeup shot so I had four shots in the target - two in the head, one in the center mass -0 and one in the -1. The target was called -1. I pointed out to the SO after that since it was not specified that it would be a procedural to have extra head shots the target should be -0. He offered to change the score sheet but I declined because at my skill level 1/2 second added to the match would not make a difference. The second violation was an allegation that my magazine carrier was too far forward of the centerline of my body. The SO said this was a procedural, then moved my carrier maybe 1/8" rearward and said this was where it should be. That's a judgment call - if it's that close of a call I say give the benefit to the shooter. The SO should ask him/herself two questions: 1) is what the shooter did unsafe? and 2) did the shooter gain a competitive advantage by his/her actions? Moving the mag carrier 1/8" inch rearward (seriously, it was such a tiny adjustment) in my opinion did not give me a competitive advantage but that's a judgment call.

I was at another sanctioned match this year where someone was airgunning and the SO first stated that he was going to give the shooter either a "stage disqualification" or a Failure to Do Right (FTDR-20 second penalty). The MD was called and the SO was advised that there is no such thing as a "stage DQ" in IDPA and a FTDR is given. Problem is, the rulebook clearly states that airgunning is procedural (3 seconds). The shooter in question has a cloudy reputation for gaming and pushing the rules envelope. If what he did makes you think he was "unsportmanlike conduct", "an unfair action", or something that "tends to make a travesty of defensive shooting" then call it that and assess the FTDR. All of those quoted phrases are taken out of the rulebook describing a FTDR. If what he did was airgunning then it is 3-second procedural. So I guess the right thing to do is if you are not sure (we can't all memorize the rulebook) then look it up before assessing the penalty.

I was one of the people Trav called about this... my first reaction, and the first reaction of several SOs that I spoke to was that a bad call was made. Turns out we were all wrong - the permitted modifications list in inclusive, and, an extended slide stop is not included.

On one hand, I commend the SO for spotting something that we now know is a clear violation of the equipment rules. He spotted it when SOs on several stages, including the ones doing the equipment check and chrono, missed it. On the other hand, if you are not sure that something is a violation, and, if you can't point it out in the rule book then you shouldn't be making the call. The SO did call the MD and asked for a ruling. I can see where the SO at this major match needs to move things along but I don't see why the MD couldn't have pointed out the rule. I think it would have been better if the SO told the MD that he thought this was a violation and ask the MD to research it while the SO continues the match. I believe it was wrong for the SO and the MD to say it was their "judgment" call. Positioning of the mag pouch behind the center line in the example above is a judgment call - this equipment violation is in black and white.

Trav, I know it sucks to get the DQ and spoil your match. As someone who has volunteered to SO at a few club matches and sanctioned matches I can tell you that sometimes it's a thankless job. Sure there are some "range nazis" out there and folks who seem to take pleasure in calling penalties and DQ'ing people but I think they are the exception and not the rule. I encourage you to keep playing the game and going to sanctioned matches - they are a usually a cut above the typical club match and worth the time, money and effort.

My $0.02
 
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Bring equipment that the rule book allows and be done with it. The shooter in this case unfortunately had a firearm modification that was not allowed.. period. He got to shoot the match. What the hell is all this bashing about??? I really get tired of the bashing on this forum- and mostly from USPSA guys. Sevigny, Jarett, Vogel and dozens of other top shooters seem to find a way to fit into both sports without problems. Enough whining already.

A disagreement with rules enforcement is bashing? My complaint is that the original inspection of the firearm should stand. Had there been a problem with the slide stop at the first inspection it might have been possible for the shooter to replace it, or grind the extension off.

I'm not in favor of "letting people cheat". I just like to see the rules enforced in a reasonable manner. Once a decision is made it should stand, period.
 
A disagreement with rules enforcement is bashing? My complaint is that the original inspection of the firearm should stand. Had there been a problem with the slide stop at the first inspection it might have been possible for the shooter to replace it, or grind the extension off.

I'm not in favor of "letting people cheat". I just like to see the rules enforced in a reasonable manner. Once a decision is made it should stand, period.

I would agree with you, but what "original inspection" ..."should stand"...???

Did I miss something in this thread?
 
.

Trav, I know it sucks to get the DQ and spoil your match. As someone who has volunteered to SO at a few club matches and sanctioned matches I can tell you that sometimes it's a thankless job. Sure there are some "range nazis" out there and folks who seem to take pleasure in calling penalties and DQ'ing people but I think they are the exception and not the rule. I encourage you to keep playing the game and going to sanctioned matches - they are a usually a cut above the typical club match and worth the time, money and effort.

My $0.02

All I can say is whatever he paid for that match, hotel, food, etc.. better not cut in to my birthday present this week..[wink] priorities you know,...
 
I would agree with you, but what "original inspection" ..."should stand"...???

Did I miss something in this thread?

If I am not mistaken, the pistol was examined by the SO at the first stage that the competitor shot.
 
Maybe this will help clear it up a bit, the way I heard it this was the issue. Time for a revised rule book
it would make all of our experience more enjoyable

Extended Slide Releases illegal in ESP/CDP Lead [-]

Posts: 3235
(05/27/08 15:15:54)
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It was asked on the forum if extended slide releases on CDP and ESP guns were legal. Robert Ray of IDPA's answer:

Sorry folks, the extended slide release is not on the inclusive list of approved modifications in CDP or ESP. There is a little wiggle room on width, but for extended I am referring to those that extend past and over the plunger tube housing. These most certainly would be a no go and would get a possible FTDR or DQ at the Nationals.

Robert Ray
IDPA HQ
 
Maybe this will help clear it up a bit, the way I heard it this was the issue. Time for a revised rule book
it would make all of our experience more enjoyable

Extended Slide Releases illegal in ESP/CDP Lead [-]


There is a big difference between a FTDR and a DQ, and the fact that you might possible get either, is the problem in my opinion..
Posts: 3235
(05/27/08 15:15:54)
Reply Quote MoreMy Recent Posts Tags : None
It was asked on the forum if extended slide releases on CDP and ESP guns were legal. Robert Ray of IDPA's answer:

Sorry folks, the extended slide release is not on the inclusive list of approved modifications in CDP or ESP. There is a little wiggle room on width, but for extended I am referring to those that extend past and over the plunger tube housing. These most certainly would be a no go and would get a possible FTDR or DQ at the Nationals.

Robert Ray
IDPA HQ
There is a big difference between a FTDR and a DQ..
 
Even his answer is vague!! Wow. However if you are using illegal equipment it should be a DQ not a FTDR. The same thing if your gun doesn't fit the box... not an FTDR!
 
Even his answer is vague!! Wow. However if you are using illegal equipment it should be a DQ not a FTDR. The same thing if your gun doesn't fit the box... not an FTDR!

I agree when the legality of the equipment is black and white in the rule book. When the legality of whether or not a certain piece of equipment has so many people questioning themselves, a DQ was extreme..
 
Ok. I get it. I screwed up. Can we let this thread die. Everytime I get on line there is a new post. You guys are killing me.

Sorry... we just want to make sure you keep shooting with us... that's all. :)
 
A suggestion for the local matches: for a minor equipment violation, fine the shooter a buck or five, and let him/her keep shooting. Keep a list. If he/she shows up again with the same mod, either don't let them shoot or fine them $20. Then $50 or ...? Give the $ to the host club or to a charity. This would keep folks on their toes, rule-wise, and maybe prevent an expensive and painful DQ at a big match.
 
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