Judge rules against police officers who searched a man who was open carrying

[tuna]

the permit in Mass is a "permit to carry" is it not.or has it been changed??It really is so converluted does any one know.
In other word can you carry OPEN.

One of my co-workers is a part time LEO, and we had the discussion about the 'illegality' of Open Carry.

After arguing myself blue in the face about how it is legal, to be informed that it was not, I realized I was arguing law with a cop (almost as bad as a gun store owner) and got the definitions of the LTC A and B.

(these are not verbatim - you can look the info up easily enough in the Mass General Laws)

Class B allows you to purchase, own and carry a firearm.

Class A allows you to purchase, own and carry a fiream CONCEALED.

Since the "concealed" part is specified as a way of carrying for class A but isn't authorized for class B, then openly carrying MUST be legal.


End result of the argument was the quote: "Doesn't matter, you open carry, you're getting jacked up and you're going to lose your license".

I'm not brave enough to trust a "jury of my peers" in this, nor do I have the financial means to press the test on this. Open carry is legal, but still somehow prohibited.



If I want to open carry, I'll just wear Black BDUs, a size too small to emphasize my beer belly and pin my "CCW Badge" on the chest (crooked, of course) and just say I work the SWAT detail at the mall.

 

[Scrivener]

Since the "concealed" part is specified as a way of carrying for class A but isn't authorized for class B, then openly carrying MUST be legal.

Correct. STUPID anyplace but on your own property or place of business, but legal.

End result of the argument was the quote: "Doesn't matter, you open carry, you're getting jacked up and you're going to lose your license".

ALSO true. Being stupid w/a gun is the epitome of "unsuitability."

Open carry is legal, but still somehow prohibited.

You got it, Kafka.

 

[buketduder]

We faced the same crap here in CT. In a Federal Court in NYC recently, an Attorney from the AG's office in CT admitted that Open-Carry is lawful in CT. Thus you may see more people in CT doing it now...We have a little pamphlet we carry now..

http://ccdl.us/resources/documents/99-qis-that-legalq-carry-pamphlet


FYI- The Dept of Public Safety would like to change the law to make it Concealed carry only but I don't think our Legislature will pass it. Last year they did not even debate it..they just trashed it..

 

[M1911]

End result of the argument was the quote: "Doesn't matter, you open carry, you're getting jacked up and you're going to lose your license".

Actually, I agree with both of you. Open carry is legal. But you still might be arrested. And you might lose your license due to "suitability."

I'm not brave enough to trust a "jury of my peers" in this, nor do I have the financial means to press the test on this.

Your chief of police doesn't need a court or a jury to decide that you are not suitable and then revoke your LTC.

 

[Coyote33]

the permit in Mass is a "permit to carry" is it not.or has it been changed??It really is so converluted does any one know.
In other word can you carry OPEN.

I've said it here before. If you have a "Class B", that is the only way you can legally carry.

I also mentioned at least once before that in the "old days" (60's? 70's?), that I remember my father telling me that you were REQUIRED to have at least the butt of the pistol exposed, or they would think you were trying to "hide something". I guess this might have been before a lot of the laws we have now. Maybe then, one could carry openly with the FID. I don't know, but am going by memory here.

 

[AHM]

... St. John had been seized, and a seizure is only reasonable if there is "...a reasonable suspicion a person has committed or is committing a crime." Since this did not exist (the only reason that he was seized was him gun, which was being carried legally). ... The judge rules that St John's lawful possession of a firearm in a crowded place could not create reasonable suspicion on its own. ... The search was invalid for the exact same reasons as the seizure. The police can pat you down if they believe that you are armed and dangerous. St John was certainly armed, but there was no legitimate reason to think that he was dangerous.

The law does not require a "legitimate reason"
to think someone is dangerous enough to warrant a Terry Frisk.

The law requires that "... a reasonably prudent man, in the circumstances, would be warranted in the belief that his safety or that of others was in danger", and "... in determining whether [a prudent man] acted reasonably in such circumstances, due weight must be given not to his inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or "hunch," but to the specific reasonable inferences which he is entitled to draw from the facts in light of his experience".

-- Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)​

So,
if in the experience of a cop,
yanking an innocent individual out of a movie theatre
to tell him he can't carry in the building
might reasonably put people in danger,
then the cop can frisk and disarm them
even if they're fully-licensed upstanding residents.

The more emotion you display during a Terry Stop,
the more likely you are to get frisked and disarmed.

 

[rcwhat]

The law does not require a "legitimate reason"
to think someone is dangerous enough to warrant a Terry Frisk.

The law requires that "... a reasonably prudent man, in the circumstances, would be warranted in the belief that his safety or that of others was in danger", and "... in determining whether [a prudent man] acted reasonably in such circumstances, due weight must be given not to his inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or "hunch," but to the specific reasonable inferences which he is entitled to draw from the facts in light of his experience".

-- Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)​

So,
if in the experience of a cop,
yanking an innocent individual out of a movie theatre
to tell him he can't carry in the building
might reasonably put people in danger,
then the cop can frisk and disarm them
even if they're fully-licensed upstanding residents.

The more emotion you display during a Terry Stop,
the more likely you are to get frisked and disarmed.

Should definitely change your name to necromaster or something

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Should definitely change your name to necromaster or something

Though, to be fair, maybe we should be thankful someone uses the search function?

Dol Guldur

Oblivion:Mannimarco - The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages (UESP)

 

[frenchman]

Isn't there a way older ruling that open carry, where permitted by law, is not grounds for reasonable suspicion nor probable cause for detention? I seem to remember it like that.

 

[mikeyp]

Did I miss the email for necro-post Sunday again?

 

[AHM]

Should definitely change your name to necromaster or something

I blame the guy that posted a reply in a live thread that linked to a necrothread that linked to this necrothread.

Isn't there a way older ruling that open carry, where permitted by law, is not grounds for reasonable suspicion nor probable cause for detention? I seem to remember it like that.

See Commonwealty v. Couture.