Japanese Gun Control

[z0mbi]

A friend sent this to me today. Often you hear people cite the gun crime numbers from Japan when touting gun-control in America, claiming that Japan is a much safer country because of their strict gun control laws in which virtually no citizens are allowed to even touch a firearm.

...but at what price does their low gun-crime rate cost the people?

http://davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/Japanese_Gun_Control.htm

An absolutely horrifying read.

 

[sig shooter]

sounds like freaking nazi germany to me, the japanese were reluctant to invade america during WW2 because "there would be a man with a rifle behind evey blade of grass". the nazis also didnt want to invade switzerland because everybody was required to own a rifle and practice marksmanship by law and switzerland also has one of the lowest murder rates in europe.

 

[packingungal]

It would kind of interesting to talk to some Japanese folks who have chosen to live here - just to see how they perceive the differences in gov't control, and subsequent effects on their lives.

 

[gene]

The criminals in Japan are however still well armed!

 

[Scrivener]

sounds like freaking nazi germany to me, the japanese were reluctant to invade america during WW2 because "there would be a man with a rifle behind evey blade of grass".

Got an actual cite for that alleged quote, or are you just repeating popular myths and other internet drivel? And don't even think of attributing it to Yamamoto.

Note: Capitalization was developed for a reason. Grasp the concept.

 

[rwl1955]

Japan

It would kind of interesting to talk to some Japanese folks who have chosen to live here - just to see how they perceive the differences in gov't control, and subsequent effects on their lives.

*******
Japan is a tightly controlled society. There is no comparison to America. WE were afraid to invade Japan at the end of WWII because we knew every Japanese would fight to the death if ordered to by the Emperor. Casualties would have been unexceptable. That`s why we dropped the bombs.

 

[Scrivener]

*******
Japan is a tightly controlled society. There is no comparison to America. WE were afraid to invade Japan at the end of WWII because we knew every Japanese would fight to the death if ordered to by the Emperor. Casualties would have been unexceptable [sic]. That`s why we dropped the bombs.

And thank God we (Truman) did! It saved Japanese lives as well as American, although that was a fringe benefit.

 

[jdubois]

WE were afraid to invade Japan at the end of WWII

Depends upon who you mean by "we". In June of 1945, the Joint Chiefs unanimously recommended that the invasion go forward. It wasn't until radio intercepts in July showed huge military build-ups in the Southern Island of Kyushu that Adm. King withdrew the Navy's support of the invasion based on what he considered would be unacceptable losses. However, even after August 6th (the Hiroshima bombing), General Marshall, mostly on the advice of General MacArthur, still supported an invasion.

In hindsight, I think there's little doubt now that the Japanese weren't going to surrender based on the threat of invasion, and the bombings did indeed avoid an even greater catastrophe in both Allied and Japanese lives. But at the time, I don't think Truman was making the decision assuming it was an either/or choice between bombing and a ground invasion. For all he knew, they would still have to go in fighting all the way to the last man.

 

[subtlesquid]

Hi all, I'm the guy who sent this to z0mbi this morning. I've been lurking for a couple weeks but I figured I'd sign up today so I could take part in the discussion.

I think the article shows Japan to be a quite fascinating example of what it takes for the grabbers to succeed in their goals and what happens when they do. A history of deferring to power under threat of death with no means of self defense has left the Japanese a ruled people with, "an assumption that the state is a prior and self-justifying entity." This assumption provides even a democratically elected government the capability for some pretty ridiculous abuses of power. A push for disarmament goes hand in hand with the assumption that we citizens should be ruled by rather than rule our government, and successful disarmament reinforces that idea because it means the destruction of those who oppose rule.

 

[PaulD]

Japan does have very low crime stats and gun control might actually help in that regard. However, from a cultural standpoint, Japan is about as polar opposite of the US as an industrial nation could be. It's pretty much completely homogenous and everyone puts the country before themselves.

If anyone cites Japan as an example that gun control could work in the US, they are being disingenuous.

The UK is much more similar culture and we all know how things are going there.

 

[rwl1955]

Japan

And thank God we (Truman) did! It saved Japanese lives as well as American, although that was a fringe benefit.

******
Over the years I`ve worked with many WWII vets. Many of them have told me they were staging in the Phillipines for the invasion of Japan. Most felt the bomb saved their lives.

 

[FPrice]

Japan does have very low crime stats and gun control might actually help in that regard. However, from a cultural standpoint, Japan is about as polar opposite of the US as an industrial nation could be. It's pretty much completely homogenous and everyone puts the country before themselves.

Your first statement is completely at odds with your last conclusion. Is it gun control or their cultural behavior of subservience to the collective (gee, they sound like Borg) and their adherence to good behavior which accounts for their general low crime rate?

 

[PaulD]

Your first statement is completely at odds with your last conclusion. Is it gun control or their cultural behavior of subservience to the collective (gee, they sound like Borg) and their adherence to good behavior which accounts for their general low crime rate?

All political positions aside, if there was a way to magically eliminate guns in a country, gun crime would cease to exist. Japan approaches that. The reason the government can do that is because of how tightly they control everything and the Japanese culture enables that. In addition, Japanese culture doesn't encourage being a criminal. Sure, there are people who rebel against that but it's a relatively small number compared to here.

As I said, no way would any of that work here and I wouldn't want to live in a society with the resulting trade offs (lack of other civil rights).

 

[Scrivener]

Japan is also an island nation with a long history of gun control. In short, very much like Britain in that it could control its borders fairly effectively and guns were limited to the nobility.

UNLIKE Britain, there is no concept of individual autonomy, still less the use of force to protect and preserve same.

A very interesting comparison is suicide rates between Japan and the Western nation of your choice, particularly the rate for children and young adults. You'd be hard pressed to find a child who committed suicide because the "right" grade school declined enrollment.

 

[z0mbi]

Your first statement is completely at odds with your last conclusion. Is it gun control or their cultural behavior of subservience to the collective (gee, they sound like Borg) and their adherence to good behavior which accounts for their general low crime rate?

It is their cultural genetics cultivated through thousands of years of empirical rule to not question government which allows gun control to actually work in Japan. The common person in Japan today is just as much a lower class subject as their ancestors were and through cultural brainwashing (for lack of a better term) basically accepts and embraces that fact.

In short, they have never had rights, so they do not miss them nor do they desire to fight for them.

 

[KMaurer]

It'll probably take me forever to dig up the cite, but there was a study about 20 years ago looking a bit more closely and the comparison of violent crime rates in the US and Japan. While the Brady Posse likes to attribute the differences to the miracle of strong ant-gun laws, this study brought out an extremely interesting observation. It seems that among first and second-generation Japanese living in the US (where, as everybody knows, any 12-year old can legally buy a machine gun with no paperwork at the corner 7-11), the rate of violent crime is actually lower than among Japanese of the same age and sex living in Japan. Gomen nasai, Sarah; gomen nasai.

Ken

 

[The Village Idiot]

I believe that Japan's gun control started in 1945 when we kicked their asses and TOOK their guns from them!

 

[peterpressure]

Hi all, I'm the guy who sent this to z0mbi this morning. I've been lurking for a couple weeks but I figured I'd sign up today so I could take part in the discussion.

I think the article shows Japan to be a quite fascinating example of what it takes for the grabbers to succeed in their goals and what happens when they do. A history of deferring to power under threat of death with no means of self defense has left the Japanese a ruled people with, "an assumption that the state is a prior and self-justifying entity." This assumption provides even a democratically elected government the capability for some pretty ridiculous abuses of power. A push for disarmament goes hand in hand with the assumption that we citizens should be ruled by rather than rule our government, and successful disarmament reinforces that idea because it means the destruction of those who oppose rule.

+1 and Welcome, Great Article! I also found it to be a great narrative of how over a few centuries the Japanese citizens have deferred any sort of firearms ownership completely over to the powerfull...

Very worthy reading...

I believe that Japan's gun control started in 1945 when we kicked their asses and TOOK their guns from them!

 

[FPrice]

All political positions aside, if there was a way to magically eliminate guns in a country, gun crime would cease to exist.

And if you magically eliminated cars and other ICE vehicles, then there would be no automobile accidents. And so and so on.

All you do is substitute one (or more) kinds of crime for the "crime" which disappeared when you eliminated a particular item.

 

[jdubois]

All you do is substitute one (or more) kinds of crime for the "crime" which disappeared when you eliminated a particular item.

Unless you implement my 'scorched earth' policy of law enforcement

 

[hminsky]

It's funny though, when I hear people complain on this board about our lenient courts and loopholes that let repeat offenders out. If we had a police system like they do in Japan (basically 100% conviction rate, you're allowed to use illegally obtained evidence, you can torture a confession out of someone), we could have some of the benefits they enjoy of kicking the shit out of their criminals. But it would be at a real cost to our freedoms.

 

[z0mbi]

I believe that Japan's gun control started in 1945 when we kicked their asses and TOOK their guns from them!

We actually GAVE them guns.

 

[UFO]

Japan does have very low crime stats and gun control might actually help in that regard. However, from a cultural standpoint, Japan is about as polar opposite of the US as an industrial nation could be. It's pretty much completely homogenous and everyone puts the country before themselves.

If anyone cites Japan as an example that gun control could work in the US, they are being disingenuous.

The UK is much more similar culture and we all know how things are going there.

Bingo. +1

 

[drgrant]

Excellent article.

It does illustrate, in graphic detail, that "gun violence" is not strictly an issue of having guns around or not- but rather whether or not violence occurs is mostly a matter of cultures, geography, etc...

One of the problems that most non fully invested antis have is that they fail to understand that conflict between humans is actually a complicated issue with a variety of facets to it. They all want the easy fix- "oh noes people are getting shot lets remove the guns!" The reality is it's not that simple. Those who wish to do violence to someone else are not impeded by not being able to get a gun- it might make it more inconvenient, but it certainly doesn't remove the violence.

Further, the article also illustrates that different cultures have different beliefs in regards to self defense. A lot of US believe, for example, that even if guns DID somehow "cause" violence that it is morally unconscionable to limit civilian possession of the same- mainly because we believe in the concept of an inherent human right of self defense. It is WRONG, for example, for a rapist with a knife to have an upper hand over a 100 pound
soaking wet unarmed female, or any other levels of force disparity. Criminals play dirty so there is no ethical reason that anyone should be denied an opportunity to cancel that out. (which firearms provide. ) Whether or not someone actually takes advantage of it is another story, but at least
we can say that we're not denying them the opportunity.

-Mike

 

[Rockrivr1]

I was stationed in Japan for a number of years and as stated many times above our two nations cannot be compared. It's apples and oranges. The japannese culture is one of looking out for their neighbors and putting their societies needs above thier own.

As an example I was in a Tokyo suburb one time very late and there was a lady very far ahead of me on a side street. She somehow fell and as she did she screamed out. Within less then a minute people were filing out of their houses from all over the place. Most still in their bed cloths. A couple of them actually helped the girl who fell.

At first I was shocked and talked with a Japannese friend I had and to him that was something that was supposed to happen. It was nothing out of the norm for their world.

You know, I seriously doubt you'd see that happen almost anywhere in America. THAT is the reason they have a very low crime rate. Has nothing to do with their anti gun stance. They may not be able to own a handgun, but a number of them have some very sharp knives/swords and they know how to use them.

 

[mg42doc]

Got an actual cite for that alleged quote, or are you just repeating popular myths and other internet drivel? And don't even think of attributing it to Yamamoto.

Ok, Scrivener has piqued my interest on this one. I found a few sites that said Yamamoto said it to Tojo, one that says Tojo said it. A biography of either of these men might have a source (if this quote is not just BS)

Since I like the quote, I'm willing to claim that I said it and save everyone the trouble.






(Here scrivener, I'll save you the trouble...)

 

[Scrivener]

The quote is pure BS. Japan didn't have the resources to invade Hawaii, still less to mount an invasion of a country many times its size, thousands of miles away.

The matter is pure logistics, not "rifles behind every blade of grass."

 

[PaulD]

The quote is pure BS. Japan didn't have the resources to invade Hawaii, still less to mount an invasion of a country many times its size, thousands of miles away.

The matter is pure logistics, not "rifles behind every blade of grass."

No country has the resources to invade the US (except Mexico). The prime piece of land the US got has been key to its success.

 

[Scrivener]

No country has the resources to invade the US (except Mexico).

Ever hear of Canada?

Less population, but greater resources and military.

There's also the Red Dawn scenario....

 

[PaulD]

Ever hear of Canada?

Less population, but greater resources and military.

There's also the Red Dawn scenario....

It was a subtle joke (think illegal immigration).

Besides, Canada wouldn't stand a chance. Their population is ~33 million spread across a 4000 mile border. That isn't a recipe for invading a similar size country with 10x the population.