Is this a gun in MA?

matt2491

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Here's a fun query. Is a factory Glock cutaway model a gun under MGL? It's not immediately capable of firing shot as the firing pin is intentionally made too short. I suppose if you replaced the firing pin with a normal one, it would fire a round, but possibly blow up in your hand since the barrel and parts of the slide are cut away.

What do you think?

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42!

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IANAL but with actual cuts in the barrel and the shortened firing pin I'd say it's not capable of firing. Even if you replaced the firing pin it wouldn't fire, just blow up in your hand. You might get charged, but when it was test fired for the case it would come back as not a firearm.

But you'd be better off asking an attorney
 

Mtn_Guy

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@67ray meant to say /Sarc

Better advice, if the frame is serialized get a letter from Glock indicating that frame is an inoperable cutaway model, and not capable of firing. No need to register in that case, IMO (because not a “firearm” by M.G.L. Definition)
 
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Mtn_Guy

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Off topic, but can I ask what the purpose of this thing is?

cutaway firearms are meant to show how the various components function/integrate. They are often used for training armorers or demo purposes, etc.


Edit: In WWII, cutaway models were developed to teach armorers from different manufacturers how to build the USGI 1911A1s. Modern cutaway firearms are all non functioning, many are unserialized and all used for some form of demonstration purposes.
 
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Len-2A Training

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cutaway firearms are meant to show how the various components function/integrate. They are often used for training armorers or demo purposes, etc.


Edit: In WWII, cutaway models were developed to teach armorers from different manufacturers how to build the USGI 1911A1s. Modern cutaway firearms are all non functioning, many are unserialized and all used for some form of demonstration purposes.
I agree with everything that you stated. However, I recall reading (some years ago) that BATFE still required all transfers to be recorded/NICS, etc. as if they were functional guns.

I'm also willing to bet that the MA AG and DAs would treat it as a real gun and prosecute for possession without a LTC, etc.
 

42!

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I agree with everything that you stated. However, I recall reading (some years ago) that BATFE still required all transfers to be recorded/NICS, etc. as if they were functional guns.

I'm also willing to bet that the MA AG and DAs would treat it as a real gun and prosecute for possession without a LTC, etc.
One of the things they do when charging someone with possession of a firearm is have it test fired, to confirm that it is in fact a firearm. In this case that test would fail. You may get changed, but I would expect that charge to be dropped. I'm sure they will find something else.
 

Mtn_Guy

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I agree with everything that you stated. However, I recall reading (some years ago) that BATFE still required all transfers to be recorded/NICS, etc. as if they were functional guns.

I'm also willing to bet that the MA AG and DAs would treat it as a real gun and prosecute for possession without a LTC, etc.

@Len-2A Training you’re definitely more up on the laws/regulations than I am...

many questions, like @dgrantdoherty is the frame serialized?, also how was it brought into state? (I.e., did it require a transfer when it was acquired, etc)

Definitely very cool though, while they exist they are not too common... I’m still looking for a WWII 1911 version myself...
 

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One of the things they do when charging someone with possession of a firearm is have it test fired, to confirm that it is in fact a firearm. In this case that test would fail. You may get changed, but I would expect that charge to be dropped. I'm sure they will find something else.
Not necessarily. You forget that a MA Marsupial Court ruled that if a gun required a few parts (firing pin IIRC) it was still a gun and prosecutable. Thus if it fired and self-destructed, I would expect them to go forward with charges.

@Len-2A Training you’re definitely more up on the laws/regulations than I am...

many questions, like @dgrantdoherty is the frame serialized?, also how was it brought into state? (I.e., did it require a transfer when it was acquired, etc)

Definitely very cool though, while they exist they are not too common... I’m still looking for a WWII 1911 version myself...
I've seen one or two for sale some years ago (don't recall model/brand) but they were fairly expensive. It might have been 10+ years ago and IIRC it was $3xx. back then.
 

matt2491

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For those asking, yes the frame is serialized. It is definitely a gun at the federal level as the frame is all there where it matters and could easily accept a normal Glock slide and shoot.
 

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Seems the consensus of the brain-trust is it IS a firearm by bass-ackwards standards. If listed as a serialized frame from the start, we would have had nothing to discuss this rainy Sunday as the Patriots lost (*again*).

Under make/model I would definitely register it as a cutaway, if it was me...
 
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matt2491

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Upon closer inspection, I noticed the slide does not have a hole for a firing pin to even protrude through. So even if you replaced the short firing pin with a normal one, it would just run into the back of the slide breech face. Another safety feature surely, to prevent someone from swapping out the firing pin and trying to shoot it.
 

dgrantdoherty

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Upon closer inspection, I noticed the slide does not have a hole for a firing pin to even protrude through. So even if you replaced the short firing pin with a normal one, it would just run into the back of the slide breech face. Another safety feature surely, to prevent someone from swapping out the firing pin and trying to shoot it.

[devil] drill it
 

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Seems the consensus of the brain-trust is it IS a firearm by bass-ackwards standards. If listed as a serialized frame from the start, we would have had nothing to discuss this rainy Sunday as the Patriots lost (*again*).

Under make/model I would definitely register it as a cutaway, if it was me...
Under Fed law it is a firearm because it's a functional, serialized frame.
Under MA state law it is NOT a firearm because it can't be fired.
Isn't this fun? [laugh] [devil][troll]
 

Mtn_Guy

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Under Fed law it is a firearm because it's a functional, serialized frame.
Under MA state law it is NOT a firearm because it can't be fired.
Isn't this fun? [laugh] [devil][troll]

Well, the fact that the frame is serialized and can be swapped with another slide to make it functional makes it a firearm by M.G.L. Based upon my understanding. ...which kinda makes sense, because you would want to see how the trigger mechanism functions, so that would have to be functional and could be made operable.

There are training guns out there that are completely inoperable and therefore not a firearm, but in this instance it seems the fact it is a cutaway is irrelevant.

This is some good hype... can’t to see what OP lists the selling price as in the WTS... I bet he could get$1,200+ LOL
 

42!

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Well, the fact that the frame is serialized and can be swapped with another slide to make it functional makes it a firearm by M.G.L. Based upon my understanding. ...which kinda makes sense, because you would want to see how the trigger mechanism functions, so that would have to be functional and could be made operable.

There are training guns out there that are completely inoperable and therefore not a firearm, but in this instance it seems the fact it is a cutaway is irrelevant.

This is some good hype... can’t to see what OP lists the selling price as in the WTS... I bet he could get$1,200+ LOL
By that standard an AR lower would be a firearm under MA state law, but it isn't. It becomes a firearm once it is capable of being fired. This is more than just commonly accepted. So I'm going to have to say you are incorrect on this.
 

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This is the definition of a firearm under MGL, and an imitation firearm. Under MA law the OP has an imatation firearm at best. Fed law is a different story.

“Firearm”, a stun gun or a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured; provided, however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is: (i) constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun including, but not limited to, covert weapons that resemble key-chains, pens, cigarette-lighters or cigarette-packages; or (ii) not detectable as a weapon or potential weapon by x-ray machines commonly used at airports or walk- through metal detectors.

“Imitation firearm”, any weapon which is designed, manufactured or altered in such a way as to render it incapable of discharging a shot or bullet.
 

fshalor

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By that standard an AR lower would be a firearm under MA state law, but it isn't. It becomes a firearm once it is capable of being fired. This is more than just commonly accepted. So I'm going to have to say you are incorrect on this.

This.

It's a firearm at fed level, but not at MA level. But MA could and maybe would super jam you, even though it doesn't follow their shitry definition.
 

Mtn_Guy

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Hummm... interesting point.

An AR lower that hasn’t been assembled with a lower parts kit and has no upper receiver attached is not a firearm, Agree. Therefore, it does not need to be registered until converted into an operable weapon.

However, if you own a fully-registered AR (with upper receiver) but also own a separate second upper receiver that is under 16” OAL and is unregistered as an SBR, you still own an SBR because you could easily swap upper receivers to have a functioning firearm.

Conservatively, IMO I would say it would need to be registered because a new slide assembly can easily be interchanged and made operable. There are others here who are way more dialed in to the law... I’m curious what they would say...

@Len-2A Training what say you on the matter?
 

Len-2A Training

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Hummm... interesting point.

An AR lower that hasn’t been assembled with a lower parts kit and has no upper receiver attached is not a firearm, Agree. Therefore, it does not need to be registered until converted into an operable weapon.

However, if you own a fully-registered AR (with upper receiver) but also own a separate second upper receiver that is under 16” OAL and is unregistered as an SBR, you still own an SBR because you could easily swap upper receivers to have a functioning firearm.

Conservatively, IMO I would say it would need to be registered because a new slide assembly can easily be interchanged and made operable. There are others here who are way more dialed in to the law... I’m curious what they would say...

@Len-2A Training what say you on the matter?
I'm not saying that it needs to be registered, just that AG & DAs may consider it one for prosecution. Paging @Rob Boudrie as he tracks the case law and I recall him mentioning a case where the judge ruled that if all it took was replacing parts, it's a functional gun as far as the Marsupials are concerned. Rob can fill in detail as I don't track case law (with minor exceptions).
 
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